JONATHAN WEISS: SO WHEN DID,
WHAT WERE WE TALKING ABOUT?
MIKE: ISRAEL.
REBECCA LAMB WEISS: THEIR LIFE IN ISRAEL.
JONATHAN: WHEN DID YOU GET THAT?
AND HOW DID YOU GET THAT?
MIKE: WELL, MY PASTOR, HIS NAME IS DUANE VAN DER
KLOK.
INCREDIBLE MAN OF GOD.
AND HE LOVES ISRAEL.
AND SO HE SAID, HEY, I'M GOING TO BE TAKING A TRIP
TO ISRAEL, AND I'M GATHERING A LOT OF PEOPLE.
WOULD YOU BE ONE OF THE SPEAKERS?
AND I SAID, WELL, I'VE NEVER BEEN TO ISRAEL.
AND HE WAS LIKE, WELL, YOU'VE READ THE BIBLE,
HAVEN'T YOU?
YOU'RE A PASTOR.
AND I SAID, YEAH.
AND HE WAS LIKE, WELL, I WANT YOU TO TEACH FROM
THOSE LOCATIONS AND GOING TO ISRAEL WITH HIM FOR THE
VERY FIRST TIME.
IT CHANGED MY LIFE.
JONATHAN: WHAT YEAR IS THAT?
MIKE: I MEAN, IT WAS PROBABLY ABOUT A DECADE AGO NOW.
JONATHAN: OKAY.
MIKE: YEAH, YEAH.
JONATHAN: THAT'S AMAZING.
AND DID YOU GO WITH HIM?
JULIE: I DID NOT, BUT IT WAS I ACTUALLY DURING THAT TIME.
LET ME SEE.
IT WAS IN 2000, 2016.
MIKE: SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
JULIE: 2018 IS WHEN YOU WENT AND IT CAME AT A REALLY
GOOD TIME IN OUR LIFE, BECAUSE IT REALLY MARKED
OUR FAMILY.
WHEN I COULDN'T GO, I WAS STRUGGLING WITH SOME
CHRONIC ILLNESS AT THE TIME, PART OF MY
TESTIMONY, BUT I'M HEALED NOW.
THANK YOU, JESUS.
REBECCA: OH THAT'S AWESOME.
JULIE: BUT DURING THAT TIME, I PHYSICALLY COULDN'T DO THE
TRIP.
IT WAS A LOT OF WALKING, A LOT OF, YOU KNOW, AND I
DIDN'T GO.
BUT I REMEMBER WHEN HE CAME BACK, WE STARTED
GIVING TO ISRAEL EVERY MONTH AS A FAMILY.
AND AND NOW IT'S LIKE IT JUST REALLY MARKED OUR
THAT TRIP, MARKED OUR FAMILY, MARKED OUR CHURCH.
IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT LIKE TIME.
JONATHAN: AND SO HAVE YOU BEEN AT ALL SINCE?
JULIE: I HAVEN'T.
I HAVEN'T, BUT MY DAUGHTER JUST WENT.
JONATHAN: OH, REALLY?
REBECCA: REALLY?
JONATHAN: HOW DID SHE GO?
MIKE: SO WE'RE DOING THIS SERIES CALLED JOURNEY WITH
JESUS.
AND ACTUALLY THE ONE WHO HASN'T BEEN TO ISRAEL YET,
BECAUSE EVERY TIME I'VE GONE, SHE HASN'T GONE OR
BEEN ABLE TO GO.
SHE WAS LIKE, WHAT IF YOU ACTUALLY WENT TO ISRAEL
AND YOU TAUGHT ON LOCATION AND THEN SIMULCASTED IT
INTO OUR CHURCH BECAUSE WE HAVE THE ALL THE CAMPUSES?
REBECCA: THAT'S SO COOL.
MIKE: AND SO WE WENT OUT THERE AND FILMED AND IT WAS
AMAZING.
YEAH.
MY, MY 19 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER GOT TO GO.
REBECCA: THAT'S SO AMAZING.
WE'RE JUST SO PASSIONATE ABOUT THAT BECAUSE AND
IT'S LIKE, I WOULD HAVE NEVER EXPECTED THE
ANTISEMITISM THAT'S GOING ON.
AND IT'S HAPPENING NOW LIKE IN THE CHURCH.
AND THERE'S SO MUCH LIKE REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY.
AND SO WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IT A LOT.
AND SO I THINK FOR ME, BECAUSE IT WAS LIKE A
HOLY SPIRIT DOWNLOAD AND LIKE SEEING IT ALSO IN HIS
WORD.
I THINK IF PEOPLE COULD HAVE THAT OR HAVE THAT
KIND OF EXPERIENCE WHERE THEY GO TO THE LAND AND
THEY RECEIVE THAT, NO PERSON CAN ARGUE THAT THE
THINGS THAT GOD SHOWS YOU OUT OF YOU.
YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
BUT IT'S HARD TO FIND PEOPLE WHO WILL STAND
FIRM ON IT BECAUSE THERE IS SO MUCH HATE.
JONATHAN: AND CONFUSION TOO.
THERE ARE JUST PEOPLE THAT DON'T UNDERSTAND THE ACTUAL
RIGHT THAT THE JEWISH PEOPLE HAVE TO THAT LAND,
NOT JUST THROUGH THE BIBLE IN GOD'S BLESSING AND
GIVING IT TO THEM, BUT THEN HISTORICALLY AS WELL.
SO IT'S A LOT OF CONFUSION, A LOT TO
UNPACK.
MIKE: WELL, IT'S LIKE YOU HAVE A WHOLE GENERATION, I
CALL IT A YOUTUBE DEGREE.
YOU KNOW, BECAUSE IT'S LIKE THEY'VE ONLY SEEN
SOCIAL MEDIA CONTENT.
THEY'VE NEVER BEEN THERE PHYSICALLY AND THEY'VE
NEVER ACTUALLY READ A BOOK OR ANYTHING THAT'S
SUBSTANTIAL, LIKE FROM A SCHOLARLY STANDPOINT.
AND SO THERE'S A LOT OF MISINFORMATION, BUT WE'VE
BEEN LIKE REALLY PUTTING TOGETHER CONTENT.
I'VE BEEN INTERVIEWING PEOPLE.
I HAVE THE RABBI OF THE BIGGEST MANHATTAN
CONGREGATION COMING TO OUR CHURCH TO SPEAK, AND --
JONATHAN: THAT'S AMAZING.
MIKE: IT'S GOING TO BE,
YEAH.
JONATHAN: HOW DID YOU GUYS GET CONNECTED?
MIKE: ACTUALLY, I GOT ASKED TO GO TO WASHINGTON, D.C.
AND TO SPEAK WITH CONGRESS SENATORS AND TO TO
BASICALLY ADVOCATE FOR ISRAEL.
AND, YOU KNOW, THIS LIKE KIND OF THE ANTI-SEMITIC
KIND OF THE THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING ON COLLEGE
CAMPUSES AND ALL THAT.
AND SO I HAVE OVER A MILLION YOUTUBE
SUBSCRIBERS.
AND MY MY BASE OF PEOPLE IS VERY DIVERSE.
SO THEY'RE LIKE, WE WANT YOU TO SPEAK ON BEHALF OF
ALL OF YOUR FOLLOWERS, LIKE YOU HAVE THE
HEARTBEAT OF THE NATION IN TERMS OF AND IN OUR
CHURCHES, MULTI-SITE IN CITIES.
SO THEY'RE LIKE, WHAT IS ALL THESE PEOPLE ARE
LISTENING TO YOU ONLINE,
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
WHAT DO YOU FEEL?
AND I'M TELLING YOU, I HAD SOME INCREDIBLE
CONVERSATIONS.
AND SO IT WAS ME.
RABBIS, ENTREPRENEURS ALL TOGETHER JUST WALKING THE
HALLS OF CONGRESS.
JONATHAN: AMAZING.
IT WAS IT WAS AWESOME.
JONATHAN: NOW YOU HAVE A RABBI COMING TO YOUR CHURCH.
THAT'S GOING TO BE REALLY COOL.
MIKE: YEAH.
WELL, BEFORE MAMDANI GOT ELECTED, WE JOINED FORCES
AND WE WERE GOING ONLINE.
AND JUST, LIKE, FIGHTING THE MISINFORMATION.
AND WE REALLY GREW OUR FRIENDSHIP IN THAT TIME.
AND SO IT'S CRAZY TO THINK ABOUT HIM AS A RABBI
COMING INTO A CHRISTIAN CHURCH.
BUT IT'S GOING TO BE POWERFUL.
JONATHAN: SO WHAT CITIES ARE ALL OF YOUR CAMPUSES
SO PEOPLE CAN GO CHECK THEM OUT?
MIKE: YEAH.
SO WE HAVE A CAMPUS ON LONG ISLAND, WHICH WE
BOUGHT A SOCCER STADIUM AND CONVERTED IT INTO A
CHURCH, WHICH IS CRAZY.
REBECCA: THAT'S CRAZY.
MIKE: YEAH, THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN OUT THERE.
AND THEN WE HAVE BROOKLYN AND IN WILLIAMSBURG, WHERE
THE HIPSTERS ARE.
JONATHAN: YEAH, WE WENT THERE.
REBECCA: YEAH.
WE DID.
MIKE: OKAY.
OH, YEAH.
SEE?
YEAH. [ LAUGHING ]
IT'S COOL.
AND THEN WE HAVE MANHATTAN IN CHELSEA, RIGHT ACROSS
THE STREET FROM CHELSEA MARKET, IF ANYBODY'S
HEARD.
AND THEN WE HAVE A NEW JERSEY CAMPUS, AND THEN WE
HAVE A MIAMI CAMPUS AND ONE IN NORTHWEST INDIANA.
REBECCA: WHICH ONE'S THE MOST NEW?
IS IT THE MIAMI?
MIKE: NO, I THINK IT'S NEW JERSEY.
JULIE: NEW JERSEY IS OUR NEWEST CAMPUS.
REBECCA: HOW DID MIAMI GET PUT IN THAT EQUATION?
BECAUSE IT'S LIKE ALL KIND OF LIKE NEW YORK CITY
AREA.
AND THEN Y'ALL ARE FROM INDIANA.
HOW DID HOW DID MIAMI HAPPEN?
MIKE: DO YOU WANT TO TELL THEM MIAMI?
JULIE: YEAH.
SO OUR CHURCH WE HAVE A VERY LARGE ONLINE
VIEWERSHIP.
AND SO DURING THE PANDEMIC, I ENCOURAGED
MIKE TO LIKE GO ONLINE AND JUST START TALKING TO
PEOPLE BECAUSE HE WAS ON THE PHONE ALL DAY DURING
THE PANDEMIC.
WE COULDN'T HAVE SERVICES IN NEW YORK CITY.
REBECCA: Y'LL WERE SHUT DOWN.
JULIE: WE WERE SHUT DOWN, SHUT DOWN, AND HAVING CHURCH
WAS NOT EVEN AN OPTION.
MIKE: WELL, WE DIDN'T EVEN OWN OUR BULIDING.
JULIE: YES.
YEAH, WE WE RENTED VENUES.
WE WERE LOAD IN AND LOAD OUT AND SO EVERYTHING SHUT
DOWN.
SO WE HAD TO GET REALLY CREATIVE.
SO I HEARD HIM ON THE PHONE ALL DAY STRATEGIZING
AND I'M LIKE, YOU KNOW WHAT?
YOU SHOULD JUST LIKE GO ONLINE AND JUST TALK TO
PEOPLE LIKE, YEAH, BECAUSE YOU'RE DOING THIS ALL DAY.
AND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS SO ENCOURAGING AND IT'S
AND IT'S STRATEGY AND IT'S PRAYER AND IT'S
INTERCESSION AND IT'S ALL THESE THINGS.
AND SO WE STARTED DOING THAT.
AND SO OUR MINISTRY KIND OF EXPLODED ONLINE.
AND THEN OUT OF THAT, PEOPLE STARTED GATHERING
IN HOMES AND WATCHING OUR CHURCH.
AND SO OUR MIAMI CAMPUS WAS ACTUALLY BIRTHED FROM
A COUPLE WHO STARTED INVITING PEOPLE TO THEIR
HOME.
AND IT JUST KIND OF EVOLVED, AND WE DISCIPLED
THEM AND JUST WENT ON A JOURNEY WITH THEM.
AND THAT GROUP EVOLVED INTO A CHURCH.
JONATHAN: THAT'S AMAZING.
REBECCA: THAT'S SO COOL.
JULIE: SO THAT'S HOW THAT CAMPUS WAS BORN.
MIKE: AND NOW THEY'RE THRIVING DOWN THERE.
THEY HAVE THEIR OWN BUILDING.
LIKE IT'S CRAZY.
REBECCA: WHAT? THAT'S SO COOL.
JONATHAN: SO WHEN YOU PREACH ON SUNDAYS, DO YOU STREAM
INTO THAT BUILDING?
MIKE: YEAH.
SO HERE'S WHAT'S DIFFERENT.
EVERYONE'S ALWAYS LIKE, WHAT'S YOUR MAIN CAMPUS?
AND I TELL THEM WE DON'T HAVE A MAIN CAMPUS.
REBECCA: REALLY?
MIKE: SO YEAH, BECAUSE I HAVE A WHOLE BUNCH OF LIKE, VIDEO
GAME NERDS, YOU KNOW, LIKE YOUNG MILLENNIALS, GEN Z.
AND WHEN I, WHEN I TRIED TO HAVE A MAIN CAMPUS,
THEY WERE ALL LIKE, WELL, THE OTHER CAMPUSES WOULD
SAY, WELL, LIKE WHAT?
WE'RE NOT, LIKE GOOD ENOUGH.
YEAH.
AND I SAID, WELL, IF YOU GUYS CAN ACHIEVE THESE
LEVELS, YOU COULD BE A MAIN CAMPUS.
AND IT STARTED AS LIKE A JOKE.
AND THEN ALL THE CAMPUSES STARTED BASICALLY LEVELING
UP.
SO NOW I GO TO THE DIFFERENT ONES AND I CAN
STREAM OUT OF ANY ONE TO ALL.
JONATHAN: OH THAT'S SMART.
MIKE: WHICH IS KIND OF COOL.
YEAH.
REBECCA: I'VE NEVER HEARD OF ANYONE DOING IT THAT WAY.
JONATHAN: SO YOU JUST ROTATE THROUGH.
MIKE: YEAH.
I ROTATE THROUGH.
YEAH.
SO LIKE I MIGHT BE ON LONG ISLAND AND THEN I'LL BE IN
MANHATTAN, SO.
YEAH.
JONATHAN: AND WHICH IS THE LARGEST?
MIKE: PROBABLY LONG ISLAND.
YEAH.
REBECCA: AND IT'S BEEN TEN,
HOW MANY YEARS?
MIKE: ABOUT THAT, YEAH, TOTAL TIME.
JULIE: WE PLANTED THE CHURCH.
WE STARTED HAVING MONTHLY SERVICES IN 20 IN
2016.
SO WE'VE BEEN HAVING SERVICES FOR TEN YEARS.
WE WENT WEEKLY IN 2017.
REBECCA: THAT'S A LOT OF GROWTH IN A SMALL AMOUNT OF TIME.
THAT'S HARD.
JONATHAN: YOU STARTED HAVING SERVICES IN NEW YORK
ORIGINALLY.
MIKE: OH YEAH.
JONATHAN: WHAT BROUGHT YOU FROM INDIANA TO NEW YORK?
MIKE: SO I'M IN MY GARAGE.
REBECCA: I LIKE THAT Y'ALL LAUGH.
MIKE: THIS WHOLE THING IS ABSURD.
YOU KNOW, ANYBODY LISTENING RIGHT NOW IS
STILL TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS HE TALKING ABOUT?
BECAUSE IT IS CRAZY.
REBECCA: Y'ALL WERE JUST FOLLOWING THE LORD LIKE
YOU WEREN'T LIKE, WE'RE GONNA DO THIS.
IT'S JUST LIKE YOU WERE FOLLOWING HIS LEADING.
MIKE: WELL, I HAD A GUY WHO WAS LIKE, A BIG SEMINARY
GUY, AND HE WAS AT MY STUDIO DOING A PODCAST,
AND I WAS KIND OF LIKE, DOWNPLAYING EVERYTHING
WE'VE DONE.
AND HE JUST, LIKE, KIND OF REBUKED ME IN FRONT OF OUR
TEAM.
AND HE WAS LIKE, CAN I JUST EXPLAIN TO YOU GUYS
LIKE, TO OUR KNOWLEDGE, IN THE SEMINARY WORLD, NO ONE
HAS EVER LAUNCHED CAMPUSES FROM LONG ISLAND ALL THE
WAY TO NEW JERSEY THAT HAVE SUSTAINED AND
SIMULCAST INTO THEM.
LIKE, YOU GUYS ARE ACTUALLY DOING THESE
HISTORIC THINGS.
YOU DON'T EVEN REALIZE IT BECAUSE FOR US, WE WERE
JUST TRYING TO SOLVE PROBLEMS.
YEAH, THAT'S REALLY HOW IT HAPPENED.
SO EVEN WITH THE SIMULCAST, I DIDN'T HAVE
A DESIRE TO HAVE A SIMULCAST CHURCH.
I'M LIKE A SPIRITUAL FATHER.
I WANTED TO RAISE UP OTHER PREACHERS, AND WHEN I HAD
PEOPLE IN ROTATION PREACHING, WHAT HAPPENED
WAS THEY STARTED GETTING LIKE BURNT OUT.
JULIE: WHEN YOU PREACH EVERY NOW AND THEN, THAT'S CUTE.
BUT WHEN YOU PREACH 52 WEEKS A YEAR, IT'S WILD.
AND SO I DID IT FOR A LONG TIME AND I WAS LIKE, SIR,
I NEED.
I'M LIKE, THIS IS CRAZY.
MIKE: YEAH.
OUR PREACHERS BASICALLY CAME BACK TO ME AND
THEY'RE LIKE, I DON'T THINK I CAN PREACH THIS
FREQUENTLY.
SO I SAID, WELL, LET'S SET UP SIMULCAST AND SEE IF
THAT IS, THAT WAY,
IT'LL ALLEVIATE THE BURDEN.
AND THEN WE DID AND OUR CHURCH EXPLODED MORE.
JONATHAN: WOW.
MIKE: SO THERE'S THAT'S ONE THERE'S JUST A WEIRD GRACE
ON US.
YOU KNOW.
REBECCA: IT'S KIND OF LIKE WHEN MOSES AND JETHRO CAME TO
HIM AND HE WAS, LIKE, DIVIDE IT UP THIS WAY
BECAUSE HE WAS TAKING ON TOO MUCH HIMSELF IN THE
OLD TESTAMENT?
MIKE: THAT'S IT.
REBECCA: SO IT'S LIKE THAT HEAVENLY WISDOM
ON HOW TO EXPAND.
AND THEN GOD, WHEN YOU ALL PUT THAT IN PLACE, IT
EXPLODED EVEN MORE.
MIKE: YES, BECAUSE THEY WERE LIKE, BASICALLY, MIKE,
YOU'RE THE PREACHER, BUT LET US BE THE PASTOR.
AND NOT EVERY PASTOR SHOULD PREACH AND NOT
EVERY PREACHER SHOULD PASTOR.
REBECCA: THAT'S TRUE.
MIKE: AND THAT WAS LIKE A REAL IMPORTANT STEP FOR US.
SO YEAH.
JONATHAN: AND THEN HOW DID YOU GET FROM INDIANA TO NEW
YORK?
MIKE: SO FOR I'M IN MY THE REASON WHY I LAUGH.
YEAH.
SO I'M IN MY GARAGE AND I SEE I'M WATCHING THE NEWS
AND HURRICANE SANDY JUST HIT NEW YORK.
AND I'M LOOKING AT ALL THE FOOTAGE OF THE
DEVASTATION.
AND MY HEART STARTED LIKE GOING OUT TO THEM BECAUSE
IT WAS LIKE, MAN, THAT LOOKS LIKE IT'S REALLY
BAD.
ACTUALLY, THE BACK BACK STORY WAS THAT WHEN
HURRICANE KATRINA HIT NEW ORLEANS, I WORKED DOWN
THERE FOR A WHILE AFTER THAT.
SO I'VE SEEN WHAT A STORM COULD DO TO DEVASTATE
PEOPLE'S LIVES.
AND I FELT LIKE THE HOLY SPIRIT SAID, GO TO NEW
YORK AND SERVE THOSE PEOPLE WITH YOUR LIFE.
THAT WAS LIKE THE PHRASE.
AND I TOLD MY WIFE, I SAID, YOU KNOW WHAT?
IF I JUST WENT OUT TO NEW YORK AND HELPED FOR, YOU
KNOW, JUST HELP FOR A WEEK OR SO AND SHE SAID, YEAH,
GO DO IT.
SO MY THOUGHT PROCESS WAS, IF I BRING MY CHAINSAW, I
CAN HELP REMOVE DEBRIS BECAUSE THERE WERE TREES
FALLING EVERYWHERE AND ALL THAT.
AND THEN I'LL BRING MY ACOUSTIC GUITAR AND JUST
LEAD WORSHIP FOR PEOPLE THAT ARE DEVASTATED.
SO I SHOW UP TO NEW YORK CITY AND.
JONATHAN: WITH A CHAINSAW AND A GUITAR?
MIKE: LITERALLY, THAT WAS IT.
REBECCA: I LOVE IT.
MIKE: AND AND LIKE A RATION OF GASOLINE, BECAUSE THEY
WERE AT THAT TIME, CARS WERE LIKE IN LINE FOR GAS
FOR MILES.
SO I'LL NEVER FORGET, LIKE, YEAH, I SHOW UP.
I LITERALLY DROVE MY CAR RIGHT INTO THE EPICENTER
OF THIS STORM DEBRIS AND JUST STARTED HELPING
PEOPLE.
BUT THE CRAZY THING IS, THERE WERE THESE WARMING
TENTS, AND THERE WERE HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF
NEW YORKERS IN THERE BECAUSE THEY HAD BEEN
DISPLACED FROM THEIR HOMES.
AND I PULLED OUT THE ACOUSTIC GUITAR AND I
STARTED SINGING THAT SONG.
WHAT CAN WASH AWAY MY SINS?
NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS.
AND THE WHOLE ATMOSPHERE SHIFTED.
AND THEN NEW YORKERS JUST STARTED CRYING.
AND I SAID, WELL, WHO WANTS TO ACCEPT CHRIST?
AND THEY WERE LIKE PEOPLE WERE RAISING THEIR HAND.
IT WAS LIKE I BASICALLY MADE THE WARMING TENT INTO
A CHURCH SERVICE AND NOBODY CARED.
REBECCA: A REVIVAL TENT.
MIKE: YEAH.
AND I REMEMBER ONE WOMAN TOLD ME SHE.
YEAH.
REVIVAL TENT.
SHE SAID, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE FOOD, WE HAVE WATER,
WE HAVE THE WARMING TENTS, BUT WE DON'T HAVE PEACE.
AND WHEN YOU STARTED PLAYING THE GUITAR, THAT'S
WHAT WE NEEDED.
AND.
YEAH.
SO THEN I TOLD MY WIFE, I SAID, I FEEL LIKE THIS IS
HOME.
AND THEN WE JUST STARTED GOING OUT TO NEW YORK
INCREMENTALLY, JUST LIKE SPYING OUT THE LAND.
REBECCA: THAT'S
SUCH A POWERFUL WORD.
WHAT THAT LADY SAID, BECAUSE THAT'S TRUE.
IT'S LIKE
EVEN IF YOU HAVE ALL OF YOUR BASIC NEEDS MET, IF
YOU DON'T HAVE GOD, YOU'RE GOING TO BE EMPTY.
AND SO SPEAKING TO THE SPIRITUAL HUNGER OF THE
CITY.
MIKE: YEAH.
REBECCA: BUT I LOVE YOUR HEART BECAUSE IT WASN'T LIKE
WE'RE GOING TO GO OUT AND BUILD THIS HUGE CHURCH.
IT WAS LIKE, I'M JUST GOING TO GO OUT AND SERVE
THESE PEOPLE.
BUT THEN GOD UNFOLDED THIS BIGGER PLAN.
MIKE: YEAH.
REBECCA: AND SO I LOVE THAT Y'ALL'S HEART WAS JUST TO
SERVE BECAUSE THAT SHOULD BE OUR HEART POSTURE.
MIKE: YES.
REBECCA: TO SERVE PEOPLE NOT LIKE WE HAVE THESE BIG
PLANS.
WE'RE GONNA DO THIS THING.
YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
MIKE: WELL, ALL THESE.
IT'S SO FUNNY YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU'RE
TOUCHING ON SOMETHING ALL THESE YEARS LATER.
YOU KNOW, WE, LIKE, MARRIED THE CITY, YOU
KNOW, LIKE, IT'S VERY HARD LIVING IN NEW YORK CITY
AFTER THE PANDEMIC.
I MEAN, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE LEFT.
WE STAYED.
OBVIOUSLY THAT'S TRUE.
AND IN THE MINISTRY WORLD, EVERYBODY USES NEW YORK AS
THEIR COOL EVENT SPACE.
YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE, I WANT TO DO SOMETHING EPIC.
LET'S GO TO NEW YORK.
AND SOMETIMES WHEN YOU LIVE THERE, IT CAN BE
LIKE, YEAH, BUT WE DON'T NEED A ONE TIME EVENT.
WE NEED WE NEED SOMEBODY WHO WILL, LIKE, LIVE HERE
AND SERVE AND, YOU KNOW, LIKE AND BUILD REAL
PARTNERSHIP, YOU KNOW, AND ESPECIALLY LIKE NEW
YORKERS ARE VERY SKEPTICAL BECAUSE LIKE PEOPLE COME
AND THEY GO, THEY THEY START MINISTRIES AND THEN
THEY FAIL AND THEY LEAVE.
AND I THINK FOR US, LIKE IT TOOK ALMOST LIKE 6 OR 7
YEARS FOR THE NEW YORKERS TO TRUST US BECAUSE THEY
JUST KEPT THINKING, WELL, YOU'RE GOING TO LEAVE TOO,
YOU KNOW?
AND SO WE REALLY LIKE WE SHOWED UP AS SERVANTS, NOT
PREACHERS, NOT YOUTUBERS.
LIKE, I SHOWED UP JUST AS A SERVANT.
WE STILL HAVE THAT HEART POSTURE TODAY.
JULIE: YEAH, WE STILL SERVE.
MIKE: WE STILL DISTRIBUTE FOOD TOO.
JULIE: IN FACT, THE THE SAME BUILDING THAT WE HAD OUR
VISION CAST FOR OUR CHURCH IN.
WE WOULD IT IT HAD MISSIONARY HOUSING.
WE WOULD STAY THERE WHEN WE WERE PLANTING OUR
CHURCH BECAUSE WE WERE LIKE WE WERE NOT SECOND OR
THIRD OR FOURTH GENERATION MINISTRY.
WE WERE FIRST GENERATION, SO WE KNEW HOW TO DO
NOTHING.
WE HAD NOTHING.
NO MONEY, NO FUNDS, NO, NO ANYTHING.
AND THE PLACE WHERE WE HAD OUR VISION CAST, WE WOULD
STAY THERE BECAUSE WE COULD STAY THERE FOR FREE.
IT WAS FOR MISSIONARIES, AND WE WOULD GO THERE AND
WE WOULD WORK ON OUR CHURCH PLANT, AND WE
ACTUALLY SERVE FOOD OUT OF THERE.
FOR THE LAST TEN YEARS, WE JUST MOVED INTO OUR OWN
OUR OWN LOCATION JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO, AND IT'S
LIKE WE WOULD JUST BEEN SHOWING UP, JUST DOING THE
SAME THING, YOU KNOW?
SO I ALWAYS TELL PEOPLE I'M LIKE, DON'T
UNDERESTIMATE JUST REPEATING THE SAME THING
FOR MANY YEARS IN A ROW.
AND I FEEL LIKE GOD'S REALLY USED THAT TO BUILD
TRUST WITH.
REBECCA: BECAUSE YOU'RE SHOWING CONSISTENCY.
MIKE: YEAH, YEAH.
JONATHAN: SO YOU GUYS ARE BOTH FIRST GENERATION.
SO NEITHER ONE WERE RAISED IN A CHRISTIAN HOME.
REBECCA: SO NOW WE'RE GOING TO TRANSITION TO THE STORY
BECAUSE I WANTED TO GET TO THIS.
BECAUSE Y'ALL HEARING EVERYTHING THAT HOW GOD
HAS USED YOU AND EVERYTHING THAT Y'ALL ARE
DOING.
BUT WHEN I THINK BACK ON YOUR STORY, I'M LIKE, THIS
IS WILD.
LIKE WHAT GOD CAN DO.
SO CAN YOU GUYS SHARE YOUR STORY?
JULIE: YEAH, YEAH, WE'RE FIRST GENERATION MINISTRY, OKAY.
BUT I WAS MULTI-GENERATIONAL, LIKE
CHRISTIAN.
MY GREAT GRANDFATHER WAS A SPIRIT FILLED CHRISTIAN,
HAS A MIRACULOUS STORY.
I ACTUALLY HAVE MIRACULOUS CONVERSIONS ON BOTH SIDES
OF MY FAMILY.
REBECCA: WAIT, CAN YOU SHARE, LIKE, MAYBE ONE LITTLE
STORY?
I JUST LOVE THOSE STORIES.
MIKE: TELL THE STORY ABOUT YOUR GRANDFATHER,
AND THE WORD
HE HAD ABOUT A HUNDRED YEARS.
JULIE: YEAH.
SO A FEW, A FEW YEARS AGO, I GOT SENT THIS YOUTUBE
VIDEO BY MY MOM.
ONE OF THE FAMILY MEMBERS HAD UPLOADED THIS VIDEO
THAT WAS FILMED WITH THOSE OLD HUGE VCRS.
YEAH, IN THE 80S OR WHATEVER, OR I DON'T EVEN
KNOW, CAMCORDERS.
I DON'T EVEN KNOW THE WORDS ANYMORE.
THANK YOU.
JONATHAN: VCR WAS THE TAPES, THE VCR?
[ LAUGHING ] JULIE: YEAH.
SO SOMEBODY HAD THE WHEREWITHAL TO JUST START
FILMING ONE OF ONE OF OUR FAMILY DISTANT FAMILY
MEMBERS, AND SHE RECORDED THIS TESTIMONY OF MY GREAT
GRANDFATHER TELLING ABOUT HIS MIRACULOUS CONVERSION
STORY, ABOUT HOW THE LORD MIRACULOUSLY SAVED HIM.
YOU KNOW, THROUGH THIS REVIVAL THAT HAD WENT
THROUGH THEIR TOWN AND HOW HE CRIED OUT TO GOD, AND
HE GOT FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT IMMEDIATELY,
AND JUST THIS MIRACULOUS THING THAT HAPPENED TO
HIM, HE HAD LIKE AN ANGELIC ENCOUNTER, ALL
THIS CRAZY STUFF.
REBECCA: WOW.
JULIE: AND HE IS SITTING IN THIS LIVING ROOM TALKING ABOUT
HIS CONVERSION FROM THOSE IN 1923 IS WHEN THAT
HAPPENED.
THE HIS CONVERSION.
AND THIS IS LIKE 1980 SOMETHING IN THIS LIVING
ROOM.
AND HE'S SHARING THIS STORY AND HE'S GIVING A
PROPHETIC WORD FOR IN THE NEXT, YOU KNOW, IN 100
YEARS, OUR GRANDCHILDREN HAVE TO CARRY ON THIS
LEGACY OF LIKE THE SUPERNATURAL.
THEY HAVE TO CARRY ON THIS LEGACY OF LIKE, SPIRIT
FILLED CHRISTIANITY, CHRISTIANITY WITH POWER.
AND HE'S SHARING THIS WORD.
AND ME AND MIKE ARE JUST BAWLING BECAUSE AT THE
TIME THAT THIS WORD WAS SHARED, HE GOT SAVED IN
1923.
AND IT'S 2023, AND WE'RE WATCHING THIS WORD AND
WE'RE GETTING READY TO HAVE OUR CONFERENCE AND
WE'RE GETTING READY TO PLANT ANOTHER CAMPUS.
AND IT WAS LIKE THE WORD WAS BEING FULFILLED.
YEAH.
AND I WOULD SAY, LIKE, IF ANYBODY IS LISTENING, LIKE
YOU BE THE ONE IN YOUR FAMILY TO GIVE THE
PROPHETIC WORD, IF YOU'RE THE FIRST GENERATION IN
YOUR FAMILY, LIKE GIVE THAT WORD, OPEN UP YOUR
MOUTH AND SEE WHAT WHAT GOD MIGHT FULFILL IN 100
YEARS FROM NOW.
SO THAT'S KIND OF MY TESTIMONY.
HE'S GOT A CRAZIER STORY.
WHICH A LITTLE JUICIER.
REBECCA: I HAVE TO SAY, REALLY QUICK.
THAT'S LIKE Y'ALL'S BOOK, BECAUSE IT'S LIKE THROUGH
THE GENERATIONS.
BOTH: YES.
REBECCA: IT'S LIKE HE CHANGED THE ENTIRE GOD IN HIS GRACE,
CHANGED THE ENTIRE LINEAGE OF YOUR FAMILY, AND YOU'RE
STILL LIVING THAT OUT.
THAT'S POWERFUL.
JULIE: YES.
IT REALLY, REALLY WAS.
MIKE: WASN'T IT?
LIKE THE DAY THE DAY HE GOT SAVED, THE LORD SPOKE
TO HIM AND SAID, 100 YEARS FROM NOW THAT THEY THEY
ARE GOING TO NEED THE POWER OF GOD AGAIN.
THEY'RE GOING TO.
AND THEN WE'RE SITTING THERE GETTING READY TO
PREPARE FOR THIS, LIKE, STADIUM EVENT, ALL THIS
CRAZY STUFF WE'RE DOING.
AND IT'S LIKE THAT.
YOU'RE THE GREAT GRANDDAUGHTER OF THE MAN.
AND A HUNDRED YEARS FROM NOW, HIS GREAT
GRANDDAUGHTER IS LEADING A MULTI-SITE NATIONAL CHURCH
STADIUM CONFERENCES.
AND AND IT WAS LIKE, THERE'S NO WAY HE COULD
HAVE KNOWN, BECAUSE I DON'T THINK YOU EVER EVEN
MET HIM.
JULIE: DON'T EVEN REMEMBER MEETING HIM LIKE HE YOU
KNOW, HE DIED WHEN I WAS JUST LIKE A TODDLER OR
SOMETHING.
BUT IT WAS LIKE THE FACT THAT THAT WAS ON FILM AND
THAT WE JUST HAPPENED TO GET IT.
I MEAN, HOW MANY VHS ARE JUST SITTING IN PEOPLE'S
ATTICS.
REBECCA: LIKE THAT WAS A GOD THING.
JULIE: NEVER TO BE SEEN?
YES.
AND I JUST
HAPPENED TO GET MY HANDS ON IT.
SO YEAH.
GOD'S CRAZY.
REBECCA: THAT'S SO COOL.
JULIE: THAT'S A LITTLE BIT OF MY, MY STORY. BUT YEAH.
MIKE: MINE'S MUCH DARKER.
[ LAUGHING ] JULIE: HIS IS MUCH DARKER.
DO TELL.
[ LAUGHING ]
MIKE: NO I MEAN MY, MY MOM EVENTUALLY DID GET SAVED,
YOU KNOW WHEN I WAS A KID AND WHICH WAS AN AMAZING
STORY.
AND SO SHE TRIED TO RAISE US IN CHURCH, BUT SHE WAS
REPEATING CYCLES.
SO SHE WAS SAVED, BUT SHE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND HOW TO
DEAL WITH TRAUMA AND THE PAIN FROM HER PAST AND ALL
OF THAT.
SO SHE KEPT LIKE REPEATING CERTAIN MISTAKES OVER AND
OVER AGAIN SO SHE WOULD GET MARRIED TO THE WRONG
GUY AND THEN GET DIVORCED, GET MARRIED, GET DIVORCED.
REBECCA: SO THAT CYCLE.
MIKE: YES.
AND THAT WAS LIKE MY CHILDHOOD WAS REALLY
UNSTABLE AS A RESULT OF THAT.
AND SO IT WAS THERE WERE A LOT OF UPS AND DOWNS.
REBECCA: WHAT ABOUT YOUR DAD?
SO BECAUSE YOU TALKED ABOUT YOUR MOM, WHERE WAS
YOUR DAD IN THE PICTURE?
MIKE: YEAH.
SO THEY GOT DIVORCED WHEN I WAS VERY YOUNG, LIKE ONE
ONE YEARS OLD, LIKE BEFORE I WAS A TODDLER.
AND HE LIVED A VERY WILD LIFE, YOU KNOW?
SO HE WAS LIKE, A DRINKER AND A WOMANIZER AND, YOU
KNOW, FAST CARS AND, LIKE, YOU KNOW, KIND OF LIKE
ROCK STAR LIFE, YOU KNOW?
AND.
BUT HIS DAD DIED PREMATURELY AND HIS DAD,
YOU KNOW, SO I THINK --
JONATHAN: GENERATIONAL.
MIKE: YES, THERE WAS THIS FEAR OF DEATH.
I THINK THERE WAS A I'M JUST GONNA LIVE MY LIFE.
GOD'S NOT REAL.
YOU KNOW, MY DAD WASN'T A MAN OF FAITH LIKE.
AND I THINK HE JUST SAID, YOU KNOW WHAT?
I'M JUST GONNA LIVE LIFE IN WHATEVER PLEASURES.
LIKE I'M JUST GOING TO SATISFY MY OWN DESIRES.
AND THAT WAS KIND OF IT.
AND I DIDN'T HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM.
JONATHAN: AND IS HE STILL ALIVE TODAY?
MIKE: NO.
SO WHEN --
REBECCA: AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE STORY.
MIKE: YEAH.
BECAUSE SO FAST FORWARD, I'M TRYING TO LIVE FOR
GOD.
REBECCA: DID YOU GET SAVED AT A YOUNG AGE?
WHEN DID YOU
GET SAVED?
MIKE: OKAY, SO WHEN MY SO THE STORY THAT, THAT I'VE TOLD
MANY TIMES IS LIKE MY MOTHER WAS THE VICTIM OF
DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.
SO IT'S LIKE SHE LITERALLY HAS TWO BLACK EYES, YOU
KNOW, AND A BROKEN RIB.
AND SHE'S RECOVERING FROM THIS LAST INCIDENT.
MY STEPFATHER HAD JUST LEFT THE HOME, YOU KNOW,
AND SHE'S READING THE NEWSPAPER.
SO, YOU KNOW, LIKE OLD SCHOOL NEWSPAPER.
AND A PASTOR HAD PUT A CLASSIFIED AD THAT SAID
HE WAS LOOKING FOR A WORSHIP LEADER.
AND SO THE STORY IS SO ABSURD, LIKE THE OLDER YOU
GET, LIKE, YOU LOOK BACK AND YOU'RE LIKE, THIS IS A
CRAZY, LIKE, REALLY ABSURD BECAUSE MY MOM, FOR
WHATEVER REASON, HAS THE AUDACITY TO PICK UP THE
PHONE AND CALL THIS PASTOR.
AND SHE BASICALLY SAID TO HIM, YOU KNOW, I CAN PLAY
THE PIANO AND SING.
I CAN BE YOUR WORSHIP LEADER.
BUT THE ONLY PROBLEM IS, LIKE, I GOT TWO BLACK
EYES.
MY MARRIAGE IS PROBABLY GOING TO END IN DIVORCE.
MY LIFE IS A MESS.
I DON'T EVEN KNOW IF I'M A CHRISTIAN.
AND THEN THE GUY THIS PASTOR SAID, WELL, I'M
GONNA HE'S HE WAS LIKE AN OLD SCHOOL PENTECOSTAL
PASTOR.
SO HE'S LIKE, HONEY, I'M GONNA GRAB MY WIFE AND I'M
COMING TO YOUR HOUSE AND YOU'RE GOING TO BE SAVED.
AND HE LITERALLY THAT MY MOM HUNG UP THE PHONE,
AND WITHIN AN HOUR LATER, HE CAME TO OUR HOUSE WITH
HIS WIFE AND LED MY MOM TO CHRIST, PRAYED.
SHE'S BAWLING HER EYES OUT, AND I'M WATCHING MY
MOM EXPERIENCE THE JOY OF SALVATION.
NOW I KNOW WHAT IT WAS BECAUSE IT WASN'T THE
TEARS OF PAIN.
IT WAS THE TEARS OF LIKE, RELIEF, RIGHT?
JONATHAN: RIGHT, RELIEF.
MIKE: JOY. AND IT WAS LIKE TO ME, MY MOM WAS GLOWING.
SO THAT NIGHT, AFTER THIS WAS ALL OVER, I SAID, MOM,
WHAT HAPPENED?
WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU?
AND SHE WAS LIKE, I ACCEPTED JESUS.
I GOT SAVED, AND SHE WAS LIKE, DO YOU WANT TO
ACCEPT CHRIST AS WELL?
AND I SAID, YEAH.
AND SO MY MOM LED ME TO CHRIST.
SO THAT'S WHAT STARTED MY JOURNEY OF JUST SERVING
THE LORD.
AND WE WENT TO CHURCH AND THROUGH ALL THE UPS AND
DOWNS, THAT WAS THE ONE CONSTANT WAS LIKE, WE'RE
GOING TO CHURCH.
WE HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO LIVE LIFE, BUT WE'RE
GOING TO FIGURE THIS OUT.
REBECCA: AND SO FROM THERE, YOU TWO MET EACH OTHER?
CAN YOU TELL THAT STORY?
JULIE: YEAH.
[GO AHEAD. [ LAUGHING ]
JONATHAN: THERE'S A LOT OF GO AHEAD.
REBECCA: DO TELL.
MIKE: SO LIKE EVENTUALLY LIKE I STARTED PREACHING AND
LEADING WORSHIP AND ALL THAT.
REBECCA: SO YOU FELT THE CALL TO MINISTRY?
MIKE: OH YEAH.
DEFINITELY.
AND YOU KNOW, I WAS STRUGGLING TOO BECAUSE
BACK IN THE DAY, LIKE WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE 80S,
THE 90S, THE EARLY 2000, LIKE THERAPY, COUNSELING,
YOU DIDN'T TALK.
IT WAS JUST LIKE YOU PRAY ABOUT IT AND THAT'S IT, RIGHT?
JULIE: YOU DIDN'T EVEN TALK.
I MEAN, PEOPLE DIDN'T EVEN TALK ABOUT THOSE THINGS,
RIGHT?
MUCH LESS.
JONATHAN: WHAT THINGS?
JULIE: PRAY ABOUT THEM.
LIKE TRAUMA.
JONATHAN: OKAY.
REBECCA: INNER HEALING.
GOING GOING TO THERAPY.
JULIE: REJECTION. YEAH.
ALL THOSE THINGS.
MIKE: YEAH.
YOU JUST, YOU --
REBECCA: FATHER WOUNDS,
ATTACHMENT STYLES.
ALL THE STUFF THAT WE TALK ABOUT NOW.
MIKE: YEAH.
NOW IT'S LIKE NORMAL.
BUT I REMEMBER BACK IN THE DAY, IT'S LIKE IF SOMEONE
SAID, I'M IN THERAPY, YOU WERE LIKE, OH, YOU'RE
CRAZY.
YOU KNOW, LIKE.
IT WASN'T NORMAL.
IT WASN'T ESPECIALLY WHERE WE'RE FROM BECAUSE IT WAS
LIKE BLUE COLLAR.
SO AND I HAD ALL THIS STUFF THAT I HADN'T DEALT
WITH AND I'M THINKING, WELL, I'M JUST GOING TO
BE THIS...
REBECCA: FROM YOUR CHILDHOOD.
MIKE: YEAH.
SUPER CHRISTIAN.
SO ANYWAYS, I COME OUT TO DO THIS, LIKE EVENT AND
I'M PLAYING ON THE BAND, AND THEN I LOOK DOWN AND
INTO THE CROWD AND I SEE THIS, LIKE, CURLY HEADED,
BLOND HAIRED GIRL.
AND I WAS LIKE, I'M THAT GIRL, I WANT THAT GIRL.
[LAUGHTER] SO I BASICALLY WENT UP TO HER AND TRIED
TO SPIT SOME GAME AND SHE REJECTED ME.
JONATHAN: DANG.
JULIE: YEAH.
HE WANTED MY NUMBER.
I WAS LIKE, NO, THANK YOU, I'M DATING JESUS.
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU GUYS REMEMBER THAT PHASE.
REBECCA: OH YEAH.
JULIE: LIKE I'M
FOCUSED ON THE LORD.
I'M LIKE, CAN'T CAN'T HELP YOU THERE.
SORRY, BUT YEAH.
YEAH.
AND I THINK WE HAD MET LIKE MAYBE ONE OTHER TIME
BEFORE THAT.
AND SO THIS WAS LIKE HIS MEGA ATTEMPT
TO LIKE.
MIKE: YEAH.
YEAH.
SO YOU SAID...
JULIE: TO GET ME.
MIKE: LIKE SOMETHING TO THE SHE WAS LIKE, WELL, WE
COULD BE FRIENDS.
LIKE I'LL GIVE YOU MY EMAIL.
JULIE: YEAH.
I WAS LIKE, I'LL GIVE YOU MY EMAIL.
AND HE EMAILED ME EVERY DAY.
REBECCA: THAT'S A BIG DEAL.
THAT'S CONSISTENCY.
JULIE: HE WAS A COMMITTED EMAILER.
MIKE: YEAH.
REBECCA: THAT'S SWEET.
MIKE: YEAH. AND SO I KEPT EMAILING HER.
AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN I WAS LIKE, HEY, IT'S NOT A
DATE, BUT WHAT IF WE JUST GO OUT FOR COFFEE?
YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THAT WAS KIND OF MY FAKE OUT.
SO SHE WAS LIKE, YEAH, YOU KNOW, LIKE, I GUESS WE
COULD JUST BE FRIENDS.
WE'LL GO OUT FOR COFFEE.
AND THEN WITHIN THE FIRST FIVE MINUTES, LIKE I HAD
HER LAUGHING AND COFFEE, LIKE, CAME OUT OF HER NOSE
AND SHE WAS LAUGHING SO HARD.
I BASICALLY WAS LIKE, ALL RIGHT, I GOT HER.
IT'S OVER.
REBECCA: IT'S LOCKED IN.
IT WAS.
JULIE: I WAS LOCKED IN.
YEAH.
AND HE DID.
HE GOT ME.
I WAS LIKE, THAT'S IT.
THAT'S HAPPENING.
LIKE I NEVER I NEVER WANTED ANYONE ELSE SINCE.
REBECCA: AW, THAT'S SWEET.
SO HOW LONG UNTIL Y'ALL GOT MARRIED?
HOW OLD WERE YOU GUYS?
JULIE: BABIES.
MIKE: LIKE TEENAGERS, LIKE 19.
JULIE: YEAH.
CHILDREN.
JONATHAN: WOW.
JULIE: 19, 20.
MIKE: SO WE GOT MARRIED AT 20 AND 21.
JULIE: YEAH.
SO WE WERE 19 WHEN WE STARTED DATING.
WE WERE ENGAGED NINE MONTHS LATER.
SO WE WE STARTED DATING OFFICIALLY IN JANUARY.
WE WERE ENGAGED IN OCTOBER.
AND THEN WE GOT MARRIED LIKE A YEAR, JUST OVER A
YEAR LATER THAN THAT.
SO IT WAS LIKE SUPER FAST.
REBECCA: SO THAT'S HARD TOO, BECAUSE YOU WERE YOUNG.
JULIE: OH YOUNG, DUMB AND IN ARGUMENTATIVE.
MIKE: THAT'S GONNA BE OUR BOOK,
YOUNG,
DUMB, AND IN LOVE.
REBECCA: AND SO WAS IT
AROUND THE TIME OF YOU HAVING YOUR FIRST CHILD
WHEN THINGS BEGAN TO.
BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, HAVING KIDS WILL BRING UP ALL
YOUR PAST.
MIKE: OH, YEAH.
JULIE: OH, FOR SURE.
MIKE: YOU KNOW, OKAY, I'LL TELL YOU A STORY ABOUT THAT.
SO YEAH, BECAUSE YOU'RE LIKE A TRIGGERING
SOMETHING.
REBECCA: IT IS BECAUSE IT'S LIKE NOW YOU'RE IN THE POSITION
WHERE YOU'RE THE PARENT, YOU'RE LOOKING AT YOUR OWN
CHILD.
SO IT'S BRINGING UP YOUR CHILDHOOD.
MIKE: YEAH.
WELL, WE GOT MARRIED AND THEN YOU GOT PREGNANT.
WHAT, THREE MONTHS IN?
JULIE: YEAH.
REBECCA: OH,
THAT WAS...
JULIE: HE LIKES
TO BRAG ABOUT IT.
[ LAUGHING ]
REBECCA: WE WERE SEVEN MONTHS IN.
MIKE: OH, MAN. FIST BUMP.
[ LAUGHING ] REBECCA: YEAH, IT WAS QUICK.
AND THAT CHANGES EVERYTHING.
JULIE: I WAS LIKE BAWLING.
I WAS LIKE, YEEES.
[ LAUGHING ]
MIKE: YEAH, IT WAS SUCH A FUNNY THING.
SO.
YEAH.
BUT THEN BELLA WAS BORN AND I'M HOLDING HER IN MY
ARMS, AND IT WAS LIKE THIS WEIRD THING WHERE I WAS
LIKE, I, I'M JUST MEETING YOU FOR THE FIRST TIME,
BUT I ALREADY LOVE YOU WITH, LIKE, A RIGHT.
AND YOU FELT THAT FATHERLY LOVE.
JONATHAN: IT'S SO WEIRD. YEAH.
MIKE: THAT YOU'RE LIKE, THIS IS A DIFFERENT LOVE THAN I
HAVE FOR MY WIFE.
YEAH.
YOU KNOW.
JONATHAN: YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN IT.
MIKE: YOU CAN'T.
JONATHAN: NO. AND YOU CAN'T ANTICIPATE IT EITHER.
MIKE: RIGHT.
JONATHAN: AND I REMEMBER WHEN WE WERE GOING TO HAVE A KID,
I WAS LIKE, I DON'T KNOW IF I'M GONNA LOVE THE KID.
I WAS WORRIED ABOUT THAT BECAUSE I WAS JUST LIKE,
I DON'T KNOW IF I'M IN TOUCH ENOUGH WITH MY
FEELINGS.
REBECCA: BECAUSE MEN REALLY DON'T CONNECT
UNTIL THE BABY COMES OUT.
MIKE: YEAH.
JONATHAN: YOU KNOW, IT'S KIND OF LIKE, OH, YEAH, THEY'RE
THERE.
JONATHAN: IT'S SO TRUE.
REBECCA: HE'S THE BEST DAD. HE'S THE BEST DAD.
[ LAUGHING ]
JONATHAN: AS SOON AS I, I DIDN'T MEAN TO CUT
OFF YOUR STORY BUT RESONATE WITH LIKE AS SOON
AS YOU HAD AS SOON AS ASHER CAME OUT.
ASHER WAS OUR FIRSTBORN.
IT WAS JUST LIKE YOU JUST IMMEDIATELY FEEL THE
FATHER'S LOVE.
YEAH, LIKE HIT YOU FOR THE KID.
IT'S LIKE SUPERNATURAL, ACTUALLY.
AND THEN IT JUST GOES FROM THERE.
MIKE: IT IS SUPER.
I LOVE THAT NAME.
ASHER.
JONATHAN: THANK YOU.
REBECCA: AW,
THANK YOU.
MIKE: SO.
YEAH.
SO YOU FELT THAT?
JONATHAN: YEAH.
MIKE: LIKE, YOU KNOW WHAT
I'M, OKAY.
BECAUSE IT WAS.
YEAH.
AND SHE'S LIKE KIND OF LOOKING AT, YOU KNOW BELLA
WAS LIKE TRYING TO OPEN HER EYES.
AND IT WAS JUST A MOMENT.
SO THEN BUT THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN I WENT BACK
BECAUSE THIS WAS BACK IN THE DAY.
YOU COULDN'T STAY THE NIGHT LIKE THE HUSBAND
COULDN'T STAY THE NIGHT.
SO.
WHICH WAS WEIRD.
JULIE: LIKE THE '50S.
REBECCA: THAT IS WEIRD.
JULIE: THAT'S HOW IT FEELS.
REBECCA: THAT'S HORRIBLE.
JULIE: THEY WERE LIKE, HE NEEDS TO GO HOME.
LIKE, EXCUSE ME?
JONATHAN: YEAH.
YOU'RE LIKE,
BUT HE'S GONNA HELP WITH THE BABY.
MIKE: RIGHT?
SO I GO BACK HOME AND ALL OF A SUDDEN I'M IN.
AND I HAD NEVER HAD A PANIC ATTACK BEFORE, AND
ALL OF A SUDDEN I'M, LIKE, WASHING MY HANDS.
AND ALL OF A SUDDEN EVERYTHING FEELS LIKE
TUNNEL VISION.
AND THEN I START BLACKING OUT.
BEFORE YOU KNOW IT, LIKE I'M ON THE FLOOR OF THE
BATHROOM, I'M BAWLING MY EYES OUT.
REBECCA: OH MY GOSH.
MIKE: WHAT I DIDN'T REALIZE WHAT HAPPENED WAS THAT LOVE
THAT I FELT FOR MY DAUGHTER.
THIS THOUGHT OCCURRED TO ME WHILE I WAS WASHING MY
HANDS.
DID MY DAD NEVER FEEL THAT FOR ME?
LIKE.
BECAUSE HOW COULD HE ABANDON ME?
HOW COULD HE LEAVE?
HOW COULD.
SO SOMETHING AND IT JUST BROKE ME.
THEN WHAT'S CRAZIER IS NOT TOO LONG AFTER THAT I
FOUND OUT MY DAD DIED, AND THEN IT CLOSED THE DOOR OF
ANY POSSIBILITY OF...
REBECCA: A CONVERSATION.
MIKE: I'M NEVER GOING TO HEAR.
I'M PROUD OF YOU.
I'M NEVER GOING TO HEAR.
YOU KNOW I LOVE YOU.
AND IT JUST I STARTED AND THEN MY.
AND THEN AT THE TIME.
SO WE'RE IN MINISTRY ALREADY AND I'M PREACHING
AND SHE'S, YOU KNOW, WE'RE WE'RE JUST LIVING THAT
MINISTRY LIFE TOGETHER.
AND ALL OF A SUDDEN MY PASTOR HAS AN INFIDELITY.
AND THEN MY, ONE OF MY OTHER MENTORS, HIS
MARRIAGE FALLS APART BECAUSE HIS WIFE HAD AN
INFIDELITY.
AND IT WAS LIKE MY WHOLE WORLD COLLAPSED ALL AT
ONCE.
JONATHAN: AND AFTER YOU HAD YOUR FIRST KID.
MIKE: YES.
REBECCA: ALL YOUR
FATHER FIGURES LIKE THAT FOUNDATION WENT.
MIKE: THAT'S IT.
YEAH, THAT WAS IT.
AND I HADN'T DEALT WITH ANY OF THE TRAUMA, ANY OF
THE PAIN.
SO IT JUST GOT EXPOSED AND IT JUST.
YEAH.
REBECCA: THAT WAS LIKE AN EXPLOSION.
MIKE: YEAH.
JULIE: IT WAS.
YEAH, IT WAS AN EXPLOSION OF, LIKE, EPIC
PROPORTIONS.
IT WAS JUST I YEAH, I DON'T
KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.
REBECCA: IT'S LIKE THE RUG GETTING LIKE PULLED OUT
FROM UNDER YOU.
MIKE: YEAH.
WELL, I STARTED LOOKING FOR ANSWERS IN SCRIPTURE
BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I'M A PREACHER AND I'M A WHAT DOES
THE BIBLE HAVE TO SAY ABOUT.
AND I WAS FIGHTING FOR MY LIFE TO FIND ANSWERS.
AND IT WAS CRAZY BECAUSE I WENT TO A BIBLE STUDY AT A
GUY'S HOUSE THAT I TRUSTED.
HE WAS A BIG TIME THEOLOGIAN, VERY WELL
KNOWN IN THE AREA, AND I LOOKED UP TO HIM AND HE
WAS THE ONE WHO WAS LIKE, HEY MAN, LET'S JUST HAVE A
FEW DRINKS, LET'S RELAX.
AND SO IT DIDN'T COME TO ME IN THE FORM OF LIKE,
LET'S GO TO THE CLUB, LET'S GO TO THE BAR,
LET'S.
IT LITERALLY WAS, HEY, WE HAD OUR BIBLES OPEN.
AND HE WAS LIKE, LET'S JUST HAVE A COUPLE DRINKS.
AND THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT THAT MOMENT, I THINK
THAT IT THRUST ME INTO FULL BLOWN ALCOHOLISM
BECAUSE.
JONATHAN: WOW.
MIKE: YEAH.
AND I'VE ALWAYS BEEN A REALLY, LIKE, INTELLECTUAL
TYPE CEREBRAL.
MY MIND GOES, I'M ENTREPRENEURIAL.
I'VE ALWAYS HAD MULTIPLE BUSINESSES.
SO I'M A THINKER.
SO IT WAS LIKE WHEN I WAS DRINKING WITH HIM THAT
FIRST TIME, I WAS LIKE, THIS FEELS LIKE A MENTAL
VACATION.
REBECCA: IT CAN NUMB YOU.
MIKE: YES, IT'S NUMB IN MY BRAIN.
AND IT WAS A REALLY BAD SOLUTION FOR A REALLY VERY
REAL PROBLEM.
JONATHAN: RIGHT.
REBECCA: THERE'S LIKE TWO DIFFERENT.
SO I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT I THINK MY FIRST THING
IS, WHAT WOULD YOUR ADVICE BE FROM YOUR JUST YOUR OWN
EXPERIENCE?
WE'LL GET BACK TO THE STORY, BUT IT IS A
QUESTION THAT I'VE ACTUALLY WANTED TO TALK TO
SOMEONE ABOUT.
WHAT WOULD YOUR ADVICE BE TO CHRISTIANS WHO DO
DRINK?
BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAYS DON'T LEAD YOUR BROTHER TO
STUMBLE?
MIKE: YEAH.
REBECCA: SO HOW DO YOU HANDLE THAT?
BECAUSE HE LITERALLY OPENED THE DOOR TO
SOMETHING CRAZY IN YOUR LIFE AND THAT COULD HAVE
BEEN PREVENTED.
MIKE: YEAH, EXACTLY.
REBECCA: SO IT'S LIKE, HOW ARE WE HOW DO HOW DOES SOMEONE
BE A GOOD WITNESS?
BECAUSE I KNOW THERE ARE CHRISTIANS WHO DO DRINK.
MIKE: RIGHT.
REBECCA: AND THAT'S LIKE ONE OF THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS IS
THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO CAN'T DRINK AT ALL.
IT'S LIKE
HORRIBLE FOR THEM.
SO WHAT WOULD YOUR ANSWER BE TO THAT?
MIKE: IT'S LIKE I HAD A GENETIC PREDISPOSITION
THAT THAT GUY DIDN'T KNOW.
REBECCA: AND A LOT OF PEOPLE DO.
MIKE: EXACTLY.
IT'S HONESTLY LIKE YOU HAVE A LOADED GUN AND
THAT FIRST DRINK IS PULLING THE TRIGGER.
AND SO WHY WOULD YOU WHY WOULD YOU COLLABORATE WITH
THAT.
RIGHT.
AND PEOPLE WILL SAY, WELL, WE'RE NOT EVEN IN PUBLIC.
WE'RE.
SO THAT'S THE THING IS, I WASN'T IN PUBLIC.
WE WERE IN PRIVATE.
BUT HE DIDN'T KNOW ME.
HE DIDN'T KNOW MY PREDISPOSITION.
AND OF COURSE, IT WASN'T HIS FAULT IN THE SENSE
THAT I ULTIMATELY MADE THE CHOICE AS AN ADULT.
MIKE: BUT HE SENT ME ON A PATH.
HE PUSHED ME IN THAT DIRECTION AND EVEN.
AND I THINK THE THING THAT'S CRAZIER IS THAT HE
DID THIS AS A CHRISTIAN MAN.
RIGHT.
AND SO I THINK THE OFFERING IT AND SO I DON'T
WANT TO BE RESPONSIBLE.
THAT'S HOW I LOOK AT ALL THESE YEARS LATER.
I DON'T THERE'S TWO THINGS.
ONE IS I DON'T WANT SOMEBODY TO SEE ME DO
SOMETHING AND THINK THAT THEY CAN DO IT RIGHT.
SO I DON'T WANT TO USE MY INFLUENCE LIKE THAT.
AND THEN NUMBER TWO IS YOU NEVER KNOW WHO WHAT THEIR
PREDISPOSITION IS.
SO I THINK ULTIMATE WISDOM IS JUST TO NEVER DO IT.
REBECCA: OKAY.
MIKE: AND THAT'S WHERE I LAND.
AND HERE'S WHAT'S CRAZY.
I'VE BEEN IN MINISTRY CIRCLES WITH VERY HIGH
LEVEL PEOPLE, VERY FAMOUS PEOPLE, VERY INFLUENTIAL
PEOPLE, AND I THINK THEY'VE PERCEIVED ME AS
WELL.
YOU'RE JUST LEGALISTIC, YOU'RE JUST OLD SCHOOL.
BUT THEN THOSE SAME PEOPLE, YEARS LATER,
ALCOHOL DESTROYED THEIR ENTIRE MARRIAGE, THEIR
MINISTRY AND EVERYTHING.
AND ACTUALLY WITHIN THE LAST COUPLE YEARS, I'VE
RECEIVED QUITE A FEW APOLOGIES FOR PEOPLE WHO
ARE LIKE, YOU KNOW WHAT, MIKE?
I DIDN'T GET IT.
I JUSTIFIED IT, AND THEN BUT I SAW THE TRAJECTORY.
IT JUST I DIDN'T SEE IT AT THE TIME AND NOW I GET IT.
REBECCA: BUT THE THING IS, AND THAT'S WHY I.
I'M SO GLAD I'M WANTING TO TALK ABOUT THIS ON THE
PODCAST FOR SO LONG, BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE I
WANT TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION, BECAUSE FOR
SOME PEOPLE IT IS LEGALISTIC, BUT IT'S NOT
THE CASE FOR EVERYONE.
SOME PEOPLE IT'S A PERSONAL CONVICTION AND
THEN SOME PEOPLE LITERALLY THEY THEY SHOULD NEVER
DRINK ALCOHOL BECAUSE THEY WILL BECOME EXTREMELY
ADDICTED TO IT.
AND I THINK THE CHURCH DOESN'T LOOK AT IT IN THIS
LENS.
IT'S LIKE, IS IT OKAY?
IS IT NOT OKAY?
YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
AND I'M JUST LIKE, AND EVEN IF PEOPLE THINK IT'S
OKAY AND THEY DON'T FEEL CONVICTION, IT CAN GET
VERY OUT OF HAND AND IT CAN RUIN YOUR HEALTH.
IT CAN RUIN YOUR LIFE.
IT CAN RUIN YOUR MARRIAGE.
AND SO I THINK PEOPLE NEED TO HAVE THESE
CONVERSATIONS, BECAUSE I JUST THINK THE CHURCH
MAKES IT A IS IT OKAY?
IS IT NOT OKAY?
AND THEY'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO HAVE LIKE
A TENDENCY TOWARDS ALCOHOLISM OR HOW EVEN YOU
CAN IF YOU START MEDICATING WITH IT, EVEN
IF YOU'RE NOT ALCOHOLIC AND IT BECOMES A PROBLEM,
YOU KNOW WHAT
I MEAN?
SO I THINK THOSE KIND OF CONVERSATIONS NEED TO
HAPPEN BECAUSE IT'S MULTI-LAYERED.
MIKE: YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.
AND THE OTHER THING TOO IS I THINK THAT PEOPLE
ARE NOT BEING HONEST WITH THEMSELVES.
SO THEY'LL SAY, WELL, I DON'T DRINK AND GET DRUNK,
BUT THEY DO.
AND THEY'RE NOT BEING HONEST ABOUT IT.
AND WHAT HOW I KNEW THAT IS WHEN I MADE THE
DECISION TO STOP DRINKING ALTOGETHER AND I GOT
SOBER, A LOT OF MY FRIENDS CAME TO ME AND THESE WERE
VERY LIKE BIG TIME THEOLOGIAN TYPES.
AND THEY'RE LIKE, HEY, I KNOW THAT I NEED TO STOP
TOO.
AND I'VE BEEN I'VE BEEN SELF-DECEIVED BECAUSE I AM
GETTING DRUNK AND I AM DEPENDENT ON IT.
AND I AND, YOU KNOW, AND I HAD A LOT OF
CONVERSATIONS, LIKE BEHIND CLOSED DOORS THAT WERE
LIKE, OH, THIS IS MOST PEOPLE THERE'S SOME LEVEL
OF STRUGGLE THAT THEY'RE NOT ADMITTING.
ALL: YEAH.
JULIE: EVEN THAT, LIKE WHEN YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT
LIKE BEING HONEST WITH YOURSELF BECAUSE PEOPLE
ALWAYS WANT TO SAY LIKE MODERATION, RIGHT.
AND BUT MY THING IS, IS LIKE, OKAY, WELL
MODERATION IS SUBJECTIVE BECAUSE HOW DO YOU GAUGE
WHAT'S MODERATE?
BECAUSE WHAT'S MODERATE TO YOU MAY NOT BE MODERATE TO
ME OR VICE VERSA.
AND WE WERE SITTING DOWN WITH WE WERE HAVING DINNER
WITH, WITH A PASTOR AND THEY WERE JUST KNOCKING
THEM BACK.
I WAS ACTUALLY SHOCKED.
I DON'T KNOW IF I'M GONNA GET IN TROUBLE BY TALKING
ABOUT THIS, BUT I'M GOING TO TALK
ABOUT IT BECAUSE...
JONATHAN: JUST DON'T SAY ANY NAMES.
JULIE: I WILL NOT.
I WILL NOT.
I WOULD NEVER, BUT IT WAS SO INTERESTING BECAUSE
THEY KEPT TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, I DO THIS IN
MODERATION AND I'M LIKE COUNTING.
AND I'M LIKE, THERE'S NO WAY, THERE'S NO
WAY THAT YOU
ARE MODERATELY...
[ LAUGHING ] JULIE: YEAH, YEAH.
JOANTHAN: YOU'RE ABOUT 11 DRINKS IN.
JULIE: I'M LIKE, YOU'RE
TWO DRINKS PAST
MODERATION IN MY LIKE IN MY
SUBJECTIVE OPINION.
YEAH.
SO IT'S LIKE SO INTERESTING.
AND THEN LIKE I THINK THE OTHER THING YOU HAVE TO
ASK YOURSELF IS SOME PEOPLE HAVE ADDICTIVE
PERSONALITIES.
AND IT'S, AND IT'S LIKE THEY, THEY REALLY BELIEVE
THAT THEY CAN DO SOME THINGS IN MODERATION.
BUT THE REALITY IS, IS HIS BRAIN THE WAY THAT IT'S
WIRED, LIKE HE'LL EXERCISE TOO MUCH OR HE WOULD HAVE
DRANK TOO MUCH, LIKE.
REBECCA: THAT'S A THING.
JULIE: YOU CAN'T SEPARATE --
REBECCA: I KNOW PEOPLE LIKE THIS.
YES.
[ LAUGHING ] REBECCA: YEAH.
JULIE: SO I ALWAYS SAY, ASK YOURSELF, YOU KNOW, LIKE I
HAVE TWO KIDS, ONE THAT IS OBSESSIVE ABOUT THINGS AND
THE OTHER ONE THAT COULD CARE LESS.
AND I'M LIKE TRYING TO GIVE THEM WISDOM NOW AS
THEY'RE YOUNG AND BEING LIKE, THERE'S CERTAIN
THINGS THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT
YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO, BECAUSE THEIR
BRAINS ARE JUST WIRED SO DIFFERENTLY.
I DIDN'T HAVE THAT ISSUE, BUT BECAUSE OF WHAT I
WATCHED HIM GO THROUGH, I'M SO MUCH IN AGREEMENT.
I'M LIKE, YOU KNOW WHAT?
THIS JUST DOESN'T HAVE A PLACE IN OUR FAMILY.
YEAH, IT'S JUST NOT A HEALTHY THING TO HAVE IN
OUR FAMILY, IN OUR HOME.
AND SO, YEAH.
JONATHAN: SO GOING BACK TO YOU OPEN THE DOOR TO ALCOHOL
THROUGH THIS FRIEND WHO'S A THEOLOGIAN, AND YOU HAVE
THIS NEWBORN BABY AT HOME.
REBECCA: IT'S ANOTHER EXPLOSION.
JONATHAN: WHAT HAPPENS?
HOW DOES THIS, WHAT TRANSPIRES?
MIKE: I MEAN, I JUST SPIRALED YEAH I SPIRALED.
REBECCA: WAS IT REALLY QUICK?
MIKE: YEAH.
FOR ME IT WAS.
IT REALLY WAS BECAUSE I WAS ALREADY IN SUCH A BAD
PLACE.
YOU KNOW.
JONATHAN: IT WAS A TRIGGERING EVENT.
MIKE: IT WAS.
REBECCA: IT WAS TRIGGERING.
IT BECAME YOUR COPING MECHANISM.
MIKE: IT DID.
REBECCA: AND THEN A FULL BLOWN ADDICTION.
MIKE: YES.
IT WAS LIKE ESCAPISM.
YOU KNOW, I STARTED PLAYING MUSIC ALL THE TIME
AND DRINKING ALL THE TIME AND HANGING OUT WITH
FRIENDS, AND IT WAS JUST I WAS ESCAPING.
AND BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT TO FACE THE SITUATION AND
THEN THINGS KEPT GETTING SO MUCH WORSE.
IT WAS LIKE PROGRESSIVE, BUT IT WAS VERY LIKE
ACCELERATED THAT ONE DAY I CAME HOME AND IT WAS LIKE
I WAS SO DRUNK.
I THOUGHT, OH, THE HOUSE IS SO CLEAN.
SHE CLEANED THE HOUSE.
THEN I WOKE UP THE NEXT DAY AND I REALIZED IT WAS
EMPTY BECAUSE SHE MOVED OUT.
JONATHAN: REALLY?
MIKE: YEAH.
REBECCA: SO DID YOU KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON?
JULIE: AT THIS JUNCTURE,
SO THE DRINKING ESCALATED PROBABLY SHORTLY AFTER WE
HAD OUR FIRST DAUGHTER.
AND THEN WHAT HAPPENED IS, IS THAT JUST KEPT
ESCALATING, LIKE INTO EPIC, LIKE IN EPIC
PROPORTIONS.
AND IT WOULD ESCALATE AND THEN COME DOWN AND THEN
ESCALATE AND COME DOWN.
SO JUST WHEN I WOULD BE LIKE VERY CONCERNED, IT
WOULD GET BETTER BECAUSE WHAT HE WAS A HIGH
FUNCTIONING ALCOHOLIC, THAT HE DEVOLVED INTO A
LOW FUNCTION ALCOHOLIC.
BUT AT THE TIME IT WAS LIKE HE COULD KEEP HIS
JOB, HE COULD KEEP.
IT'S LIKE HIS
LIFE WAS INTACT.
JONATHAN: WAS IT EVERY DAY AT THAT POINT?
MIKE: OH YEAH.
JULIE: AT THAT POINT, IT WAS EVERY DAY.
JONATHAN: AND YOU WERE DRINKING UP LIKE IN THE MORNING?
MIKE: YEAH.
AND WHAT'S CRAZY IS LIKE, YOU'LL MEET LIKE, VERY
SUCCESSFUL ENTREPRENEURS.
I MEAN, THE PEOPLE THAT I WAS ASSOCIATING WITH WERE
NOT LIKE WHAT SOCIETY WOULD CONSIDER LOW LIVES.
I MEAN, THEY WERE LIKE VERY SUCCESSFUL PEOPLE,
BUT IT WAS JUST IT WAS LIKE, OH, THIS DRINK WE
HAVE BECAUSE I'M NOT GOING TO EVEN NAME IT BECAUSE I
DON'T WANT TO TRIGGER ANYBODY.
BECAUSE FOR PEOPLE STRUGGLING, YOU COULD EVEN
SAY IT.
BUT THERE'S DRINKS FOR THE MORNING THAT ARE SOCIALLY
ACCEPTABLE.
THERE'S DRINKS FOR IF WHEN YOU GET INTO THAT WORLD,
IT'S SUCH A BIZARRE THING, AND I THINK IT HAPPENS
MUCH MORE FREQUENTLY THAN PEOPLE PICK UP ON, YOU
KNOW?
AND SO, YEAH, I MEAN, IT WAS WHEN WE SAY
ALCOHOLISM, IT WAS LIKE DEFINITIONAL.
IT WAS.
LIKE DIAGNOSABLE, WHICH EVENTUALLY I DID SEEK HELP
AND GOT THAT CONFIRMATION, WHICH IT'S WEIRD BECAUSE
YOU DON'T YOU'RE IT'S LIKE THE ALCOHOLIC IS THE LAST
PERSON TO LEARN THEY'RE AN ALCOHOLIC, YOU KNOW, IT'S
LIKE.
REBECCA: OH, SO
YOU WEREN'T AWARE?
MIKE: NO.
IT'S ALMOST LIKE, AGAIN, BECAUSE OUR CULTURE, AND
ESPECIALLY IN AMERICA.
REBECCA: WE'RE REALLY OKAY
WITH IT.
MIKE: WE ABUSE ALCOHOL.
IT'S LIKE WE JUSTIFY.
IT'S LIKE WE NORMALIZE IT.
SO YEAH, IT WAS WHEN I STARTED, ACTUALLY, WHAT
HAPPENED WAS I WAS GOING TO COUNSELING AND THEY
WERE LIKE, WE WANT YOU TO TAKE THIS TEST AND SEE HOW
YOU SCORE.
AND IT WAS BASICALLY A TEST TO DETERMINE IF I WAS
ADDICTED TO ALCOHOL.
AND I WAS LIKE, OFF THE RICHTER SCALE.
REBECCA: REALLY?
MIKE: YEAH.
AND IT WAS LIKE IT WAS I REMEMBER THEM SHOWING
LIKE, LOOK, THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE.
AND THINGS STARTED CLICKING.
YEAH.
REBECCA: WHAT GOT YOU TO LEAVE?
JULIE: WELL,
IT GOT TO A POINT WHERE HIS BEHAVIOR WAS LIKE OUT
OF CONTROL, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
LIKE THE ALCOHOLISM, HEIGHTENED ANGER.
I MEAN, WE WE WE LAUGH ABOUT IT NOW AND IT'S LIKE
WHEN WE'RE LAUGHING, I HOPE PEOPLE KNOW, LIKE
WE'RE NOT BELITTLING WHAT HAPPENED.
IT'S JUST THAT, GOD, WHEN I WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THIS,
IT FEELS LIKE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TWO
DIFFERENT PEOPLE.
JONATHAN: I WAS JUST
THINKING THAT, YEAH.
JULIE: LIKE IT DOESN'T
FEEL LIKE I'M TALKING ABOUT MY LIFE.
I FEEL LIKE I'M TALKING ABOUT SOMEONE ELSE'S LIFE.
BUT IT REALLY WAS MY LIFE.
AND THE ANGER HAD ESCALATED AND JUST
DECISION MAKING.
AND AT THIS POINT, YOU KNOW, WITH THE ALCOHOLISM
CAME INFIDELITY.
AND SO NOW WE'RE JUGGLING ANGER.
WE'RE JUGGLING INFIDELITY, ALCOHOLISM, AND NOW WE'RE
UNEQUALLY YOKED.
YOU KNOW, I'M HERE TRYING TO, LIKE, FIGHT FOR THE
LORD, YOU KNOW, AND AND RIGHTEOUSNESS.
AND THEN HE'S BEING BELLIGERENT.
AND IT'S LIKE I'M TRYING TO RECONCILE THESE WORLDS.
AND SO IT GOT TO A POINT WHERE I THOUGHT, THERE'S
TOO MUCH.
I'M ENABLING THIS.
LIKE I AM ENABLING HIS BEHAVIOR.
I'M SAYING BY ALLOWING LIKE, LIFE TO CONTINUE AS
NORMAL, NOTHING'S CHANGING.
WE TRIED COUNSELING.
NOTHING CHANGED AT THAT, YOU KNOW, VERY LIGHTLY.
NOT NOT TO THE DEGREE AFTER THE FACT, BUT I JUST
DECIDED THAT I'D HAD ENOUGH.
AND I DID NOT FEEL SAFE ANYMORE.
AND I NEEDED TO LEAVE, AND I NEEDED TO DO IT BECAUSE
I LOVED HIM.
AND I THINK HE INTERPRETED IT AT THAT TIME.
YOU KNOW, IT WAS THAT I AT THE TIME, I DIDN'T LOVE
HIM, BUT IT WAS LIKE, NO.
REBECCA: THAT'S ABANDONMENT.
JULIE: I ACTUALLY LOVE YOU TOO MUCH TO BE A PART OF THIS.
AND LIKE, I REALLY THOUGHT EITHER TWO THINGS WERE
GOING TO HAPPEN.
HE WAS GOING TO DRINK HIMSELF TO DEATH, LIKE
ALCOHOL POISONING OR SOMETHING.
YEAH, OR HE WAS GOING TO DRINK TO THE POINT WHERE
SOMETHING HE WOULD GOT HIT BY A CAR OR HE WOULD GET,
YOU KNOW, I HAD THESE, LIKE, INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS
LIKE, EITHER THE ALCOHOL IS GOING TO KILL HIM OR
SOMETHING RELATING TO THE ALCOHOL IS GOING TO KILL
HIM.
AND I JUST DIDN'T WANT TO BE A PART OF IT.
I WAS LIKE, I CAN'T WATCH THAT.
SO I LEFT AND IT WAS ONE OF THE HARDEST DECISIONS I
MADE, BUT ONE OF THE BEST DECISIONS THAT I MADE,
BECAUSE WHAT I DID WAS I SENT A MESSAGE AND I WAS
LIKE, I AM NOT GOING TO LIVE LIKE THIS.
AND, YOU KNOW, YOUR CRAZINESS DOESN'T HAVE TO
BE MY CRAZINESS.
AND I'M SAD AND I LOVE YOU, BUT YOU'RE GOING TO
HAVE TO FIGURE THIS OUT WITHOUT ME, BECAUSE I
TRIED TO FIGURE IT OUT WITH HIM, BUT HE JUST
WASN'T READY.
AND SO I LEFT.
AND THAT WAS A REALLY SAD DAY FOR ME.
IT WAS A REALLY SAD DAY FOR HIM, BUT I REALLY
BELIEVE THAT WAS THE START TO OUR FREEDOM JOURNEY.
I KNOW THAT'S NOT EVERYBODY'S STORY, BUT FOR
US THAT'S WHAT NEEDED TO HAPPEN.
JONATHAN: SO WHAT HAPPENED?
YOU WOKE UP, THE HOUSE IS CLEANED OUT.
WHAT DID YOU DO?
MIKE: I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY, SOMETIMES THINGS HAVE
TO GET WAY WORSE BEFORE
THEY GET BETTER.
AND IT'S LIKE, YOU THINK YOU'VE BOTTOMED OUT, BUT
YOU'RE LIKE, NO, NO, YOU HAVEN'T HIT THE BOTTOM
YET.
SO INITIALLY I WAS SO MAD BECAUSE I'M LIKE, I NEEDED
YOU THE MOST AND YOU LEFT ME, WHICH IS SO STUPID.
YOU KNOW, THE TRUTH IS, LIKE, I DIDN'T EVEN
DESERVE TO BE MARRIED ANYMORE.
BUT BUT, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE YOU'RE IN SUCH A, LIKE,
BAD PLACE THAT YOU'RE JUST LIKE, OKAY, EVERYBODY,
FINE.
YOU KNOW, AND AND SO FOR A WHILE, IT ACTUALLY DID GET
WORSE AFTER THAT INITIALLY.
BUT THEN WHAT HAPPENED WAS I REMEMBER IT GOT SO DARK
THAT FINALLY THAT STARTED TO WAKE ME UP OF LIKE, OH,
WOW, HOW DID I GO FROM THIS GUY PREACHING AND
MINISTERING AND ALL THIS TO NOW I'M HERE, LIKE,
BECAUSE EVEN THE STORIES WOULD SPREAD ABOUT ME AND
PEOPLE WOULD BARELY BELIEVE IT.
LIKE, YOU MEAN MIKE, LIKE MIKE'S LIKE LIKE HE.
NO, IT'S IT DIDN'T COMPUTE, YOU KNOW, AND
IT'S ALMOST LIKE IT GOT DARK ENOUGH FOR ME TO
FINALLY REALIZE HOW BAD LIKE, THIS IS.
THIS IS BAD.
AND SO I HAD THIS, LIKE, JOB MOMENT BECAUSE I HAD A
LOT OF OFFENSE WITH GOD.
IT'S LIKE, BECAUSE I'M, I WAS REALLY BIG INTO
SCIENCE AND I WRESTLED WITH ATHEISM IN COLLEGE,
SO I GOT ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT.
SO I WAS CONVINCED GOD EXISTS.
BUT THEN MY NEW PROBLEM WAS, YOU'RE NOT JUST LIKE,
THIS IS --
REBECCA: YOU WERE LIKE JOB.
MIKE: YEAH.
LIKE, THIS IS UNFAIR.
LIKE, LIKE I LIVE FOR YOU.
I GAVE YOU EVERYTHING.
I DID, ALL THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO.
AND WHY WOULD THIS HAPPEN?
LIKE WHY?
YOU KNOW, WHY CAN'T I HAVE A REAL DAD?
WHY CAN'T.
WHY IS MY PASTOR THIS?
AND I MEAN IT.
JUST.
SO SOME OF THOSE PRAYERS IN THAT TIME WERE SO RAW,
BUT THEY WERE SO REAL.
AND I THINK WHAT WAS HAPPENING WAS RELIGION WAS
BREAKING OFF OF ME.
NOW THAT I LOOK BACK AT IT, BECAUSE I WAS LIKE,
THOSE PRAYERS WERE REAL PRAYERS, YOU KNOW, IT WAS
LIKE I WAS CRYING OUT AND I DIDN'T REALIZE I WAS
REALLY FORMING AN ACTUAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD IN
THAT SEASON.
EVEN THOUGH I WAS YELLING AT HIM, I WAS STILL
TALKING TO HIM.
REBECCA: YOU'RE BEING HONEST WITH HIM.
MIKE: YES.
REBECCA: AND YOU LEAVING HIM WAS LIKE THE LAST EMOTIONAL
SAFETY PLACE WHERE IT WAS JUST YOU AND GOD.
MIKE: THAT WAS IT.
REBECCA: BUT YOU HAD TO GET TO THE END OF YOURSELF.
YEAH, LIKE HIT ROCK
ROCK.
I DON'T KNOW WHY WE ALL,
THAT'S WHAT WE HAD TO DO TOO.
WE HAD TO HIT ROCK BOTTOM.
I DON'T KNOW WHY THAT HAPPENS TO SO MANY OF US,
BUT THAT'S WHERE WE END UP MEETING GOD.
AND THEN HE LIFTS US OUT.
MIKE: YES.
THAT'S IT.
IT WAS JUST ME AND GOD.
AND AND THEN WITH THAT JOB STORY, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE
MY DAD DIED PREMATURELY AND HIS DAD DIED
PREMATURELY.
SO NOW I HAVE A KID AND I'M LIKE, SO AM I GOING TO
DIE PREMATURELY, TOO?
AM I NOT GOING TO BE THERE FOR MY DAUGHTER?
LIKE, YOU KNOW, LIFE'S NOT I MEAN, I'M FREAKING OUT.
AND THEN FINALLY THAT JOB MOMENT HITS AND I'M LIKE,
YOU KNOW, BECAUSE JOB FAMOUSLY SAYS, THOUGH HE
SLAY ME, YET WILL I PRAISE HIM.
AND I JUST TOLD GOD.
I SAID, YOU KNOW, I MIGHT DIE LIKE MY DAD, BUT I
REFUSE TO LIVE LIKE HIM BECAUSE THE THING, TOO, IS
LIKE, THE DEVIL WILL LITERALLY GET YOU TO THE
SAME DESTINATION THROUGH A DIFFERENT ROUTE.
BECAUSE I ALWAYS SAID, I'LL NEVER BE LIKE MY DAD.
AND LITERALLY HERE I AM NOW IN MY EARLY 20S, AND
I'M RECOGNIZING I JUST GOT TO THE SAME DESTINATION OF
MY DAD THROUGH A WHOLE DIFFERENT PATH.
JONATHAN: GENERATIONAL.
MIKE: YEAH, IT WAS LIKE THIS, THE GENERATIONAL CURSES,
AND IT WAS LIKE I HAD NEVER DEALT WITH IT.
BUT THAT MOMENT OF SURRENDER WHERE I TOLD GOD
I MIGHT DIE LIKE MY DAD, BUT I WILL NOT LIVE LIKE
HIM.
I WANT TO LIVE LIKE YOU WANT ME TO LIVE.
THAT WAS THE MOMENT OF SURRENDER.
SO I PICKED UP THE PHONE THE NEXT DAY AND I CALLED
JULIE AND I WAS LIKE, I'M READY.
I WANT TO CHANGE.
I'LL DO WHATEVER IT TAKES IF YOU'LL LET ME TRY.
REBECCA: WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?
REBECCA: YOU WERE PROBABLY DOUBTING IT AT FIRST.
JULIE: WELL, THAT
PARTICULAR DAY, A FEW MONTHS PRIOR, A FRIEND OF
MINE HAD GIVEN ME A CARD FOR A DIVORCE LAWYER
BECAUSE AT THIS JUNCTURE, WE HAD BEEN SEPARATED FOR
QUITE SOME TIME.
REBECCA: THERE'S PROBABLY A LOT OF PEOPLE TELLING YOU TO
DIVORCE HIM.
JULIE: OH, A 100%. THEY'RE LIKE GIRL BYE LIKE, HE NEEDS TO GO.
AND SO YEAH, HE HAD A LOT OF ENEMIES AT THAT TIME.
WE'VE HEALED.
PRAISE GOD.
AND SO SHE HAD GIVEN ME THIS CARD AND I HAD IT IN
MY WALLET.
I DIDN'T CALL.
AND THAT PARTICULAR DAY, IT'S LIKE GOD'S TIMING IS
SO INTENTIONAL, BECAUSE THAT DAY I THINK I HAD
JUST ACCEPTED, LIKE, YOU KNOW WHAT?
HE MIGHT NOT CHANGE.
AND THIS CAN'T BE A LIFE SENTENCE FOR ME.
AND SO, YOU KNOW, LIKE, IF HE'S NOT GOING TO CHANGE,
IF HE'S NOT GOING TO BE REPENTANT LIKE I HAVE
BIBLICAL, RIGHT?
LIKE I CAN MOVE FORWARD WITH MY LIFE.
IT WAS LIKE THAT DAY I WAS GOING TO CALL.
I PULLED OUT THAT THING IN MY WALLET AND I MADE A
MENTAL NOTE LIKE, OKAY, AFTER WORK, I'M GOING TO
LIKE CALL THIS PLACE OR WHATEVER.
AND THAT WAS THE DAY HE CALLED ME.
AND HE WAS LIKE, I WANT TO WORK ON THINGS.
SO IT'S LIKE, GOD, REALLY?
IT WASN'T ON MY TIMETABLE.
I MEAN, I WOULD HAVE PREFERRED LIKE THE WEEK
THAT I LEFT FOR HIM TO SEND THAT MESSAGE LIKE THE
NEXT DAY.
RIGHT?
BUT SOMETIMES IT'S LIKE PEOPLE, THEY REALLY,
ESPECIALLY ADDICTS, UNFORTUNATELY, YOU WANT TO
SAVE THEM SO BAD, BUT YOU REALLY HAVE TO JUST ALLOW
GOD TO WORK.
AND REALLY TRUST GOD WITH THE PROCESS AND BE LIKE,
YOU KNOW WHAT, LORD?
IT'S IN YOUR HANDS.
I REALLY HAD TO DO THAT.
LIKE SINCERELY, EVEN TALKING ABOUT IT, I'M
LIKE, I CAN'T BELIEVE I SURVIVED THAT UNMEDICATED
UN, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, I LOOK BACK AND I'M LIKE,
MAN, THAT THAT POOR GIRL LIKE, THAT WAS WILD.
BUT YOU KNOW WHAT?
SOMETIMES YOU GO THROUGH STUFF AND YOU'RE LIKE, I
CAN'T TAKE IT ONE MORE DAY.
YEAH, YOU CAN, YOU CAN.
YOU'RE TOUGHER THAN YOU THINK YOU ARE.
YOU'RE STRONGER THAN YOU THINK YOU ARE.
YOU GOT MORE IN YOU THAN YOU THINK THAT YOU DO.
AND GOD IS SO BIG.
HE'S SO MERCIFUL.
HE WILL SUPPLY YOU.
THE BIBLE SAYS THAT IT'S LIKE NEW MERCIES EVERY
MORNING.
I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT SCRIPTURE UNTIL I WALKED
THROUGH SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH FOR THE FULL WEIGHT OF THE
SEASON.
YOU GET ENOUGH MERCY FOR THAT DAY, AND THEN THE
NEXT DAY YOU GET A WHOLE FRESH DOSE OF MERCY FOR
THAT NEXT DAY.
AND I THINK SOMETIMES YOU WANT ALL THE MERCY AT ONE
TIME FOR A WHOLE SEASON, BUT YOU COULDN'T EVEN BEAR
THE WEIGHT OF THAT.
IT WOULD BREAK YOU DOWN.
AND IT'S LIKE GOD GAVE US JUST ENOUGH TO GET THROUGH
THAT TIME THAT WE EXPIRED ON THE SAME EXACT DAY.
REBECCA: YEAH.
WOW.
JULIE: I'M SO GLAD.
AND I'M SO THANKFUL FOR WHAT THE LORD HAS DONE IN
OUR FAMILY BECAUSE I, YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW HOW PEOPLE
ARE LIKE, OH, I WOULD DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN.
I USED TO THINK, NO, I WOULDN'T.
THAT WAS HORRIBLE.
[ LAUGHING ]
JULIE: BUT NOW BEING SO MANY YEARS ON THE OTHER SIDE
AND SEEING LIKE WHAT THE LORD HAS DONE, I'M LIKE,
MAN, TO GET TO WHERE WE ARE TODAY TO DO THIS, YOU
KNOW, I WOULD DO IT AGAIN AND I LOVE YOU.
AND I'M SO I'M SO PROUD OF HIM, YOU KNOW.
REBECCA: AW.
JONATHAN: YEAH.
BECAUSE I'M SURE THAT WASN'T EASY.
IF YOU WERE FULLY ADDICTED, THEN YOU
PROBABLY HAD TO DETOX.
REBECCA: WHAT WAS THAT PROCESS LIKE?
JONATHAN: THAT COULD BE DANGEROUS.
MIKE: YEAH.
JONATHAN: ON TOP OF DETOXING, IF THAT'S WHAT YOU HAD TO DO.
I'M NOT SURE.
REBECCA: ISN'T IT, LIKE, THE MOST DANGEROUS SUBSTANCE
TO DETOX FROM BECAUSE YOU CAN DIE?
MIKE: YEAH.
AMY WINEHOUSE, ACTUALLY,
PEOPLE THINK THAT SHE DRANK HERSELF TO DEATH
AND, YOU KNOW, SHE'S A FAMOUS SINGER.
FAMOUS ARTIST.
REBECCA: OH, YEAH, WE KNOW HER.
MIKE: SHE ACTUALLY DIED DETOXING FROM ALCOHOL LIKE
SHE WAS TRYING TO QUIT.
JONATHAN: WOW. I DIDN'T KNOW THAT.
MIKE: AND SHE,
YEAH.
BECAUSE.
SO YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL.
SO I ENDED UP FINDING THIS CHRISTIAN COUNSELOR, AND
HE WAS AN OLD, OLDER GENTLEMAN AT THE END OF
HIS CAREER.
AND THE VERY FIRST SESSION, I THREW A MAJOR
FIT BECAUSE HE WAS PUSHING ON ALL THESE FATHER WOUNDS
AND STUFF.
AND I'M GETTING LIKE IRRITATED AND AGITATED.
OH, YEAH.
REBECCA: IT HURTS.
MIKE: IT HURTS SO BAD.
REBECCA: YOU'RE LIKE, LEAVE ME ALONE.
MIKE: AND I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT I SIGNED UP FOR.
SO HE'S, YOU KNOW, HE'S ASKING ALL THESE
QUESTIONS.
AND AGAIN, FOR ME, IT WAS THE INJUSTICE.
IT WAS SO UNFAIR LIFE.
WHY WHY DID I HAVE TO GO THROUGH THIS?
SO HE'S PUSHING ON IT AND THEN FINALLY I EXPLODE.
AND I JUMPED UP IN THAT MIDDLE OF THAT COUNSELING
SESSION, JUST STARTED YELLING AT THIS GUY.
AND THEN FINALLY I SAID, AND YOU KNOW WHAT?
NO MAN HAS EVER CARED FOR ME.
MY PASTOR DIDN'T CARE ENOUGH ABOUT ME TO NOT
CHEAT.
I JUST WENT DOWN THE WHOLE LIST.
MY DAD NEVER.
AND I SAID, AND NOW I HAVE TO PAY YOU MONEY TO CARE
ABOUT ME.
I HAVE TO GIVE YOU MONEY
SO YOU CARE ABOUT ME.
AND HE WAS LIKE, ARE YOU DONE?
LIKE HE WAS SO CALM.
AND I WAS LIKE, YEAH, I THINK I'M DONE, YOU KNOW?
AND HE SAID, ALL RIGHT, IF YOU THINK THAT I GOT INTO
THIS PROFESSION FOR MONEY, YOU DON'T KNOW ME.
AND HE SAID, I'LL MEET WITH YOU FOR FREE FOR THE
REST OF YOUR LIFE UNTIL YOU GET FREE.
AND HE WAS LIKE, THE ONLY THING I ASK IS, YOU HAVE
TO DO WHAT I TELL YOU TO DO.
SO HE CHECKMATED ME, REALLY.
AND HE WAS, WHICH WAS SO GRACIOUS BECAUSE, YOU
KNOW, YOU A COUNSELOR DESERVES TO GET PAID.
THAT'S REAL WORK.
REBECCA: YEAH.
MIKE: YOU KNOW, BUT BUT THAT WAS THE FIT THAT I WAS
THROWING.
AND THAT MAN SAW SOMETHING IN ME, AND HE WAS LIKE,
I'LL MEET IF THAT'S.
IF THAT'S WHAT YOU BELIEVE I CARE ABOUT YOU.
BUT THEN HE SAID, HERE'S YOUR ASSIGNMENT.
ONCE A WEEK, EVERY WEEK YOU NEED TO GO TO A
DIFFERENT PLACE WHERE YOU WERE ABUSED, AND YOU NEED
TO STAND THERE PHYSICALLY IN THIS REGION, AND YOU
NEED TO SAY, GOD, WHERE WERE YOU WHEN IT HAPPENED?
REBECCA: OH MY GOSH.
MIKE: AND I THINK HE SENSED THAT JUST SITTING DOWN AND
TALKING TO ME WASN'T GOING TO WORK.
SO HE WAS LIKE, THIS GUY NEEDS LIKE AN EXPERIENCE,
LIKE HE NEEDS SOMETHING DIFFERENT.
THE VERY FIRST PLACE I WENT WAS MY CHILDHOOD
HOME, AND I STOOD, WHICH WAS CRAZY BECAUSE, LIKE, I
STOOD ON THE FRONT YARD THAT THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED
THERE NEVER CAME OUTSIDE.
IT HAD TO BE THE WEIRDEST.
HOPEFULLY THEY WEREN'T HOME.
REBECCA: WHAT IS THAT MAN DOING OUT THERE?
[ LAUGHING ]
MIKE: YEAH.
AND I LITERALLY WAS LIKE, GOD, WHERE WERE YOU
WHEN THIS HAPPENED?
WHERE ARE YOU?
THAT?
AND I START, YOU KNOW, LIKE AND ALL OF A SUDDEN I
FELT THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
AND I KIND OF SAW IT LIKE A MOVIE, BUT IT WAS LIKE I
KEPT GETTING FLASHES OF THE PAST AND THE PRESENT
AND THE LORD, THIS IS WHAT I FELT LIKE, HE SAID, I'M
STILL THERE.
LIKE I'M.
I'M THE GOD OF TIME.
LIKE I'M STILL IN THE MOMENT WHEN YOU WERE A
LITTLE KID.
AND I CAN TOUCH AND HEAL YOU RIGHT NOW.
JUST GIVE ME PERMISSION.
AND I NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT ABOUT IT LIKE THAT BECAUSE
WE THINK ABOUT GOD IN PRESENT TIME.
BUT IT'S LIKE HE CAN DO WHATEVER HE WANTS TO DO.
AND I FELT LIKE THERE WAS SOME SUPERNATURAL
EXPERIENCE OF HEALING.
AND THEN EACH WEEK I DID THAT.
SO PROBABLY LIKE 7 OR 8 WEEKS IN, I START FEELING
LIKE I DON'T WANT TO DRINK ANYMORE.
SO I COME INTO COUNSELING AND I TOLD HIM I WAS LIKE,
I FEEL LIKE I DON'T WANT TO DRINK ANYMORE.
AND HE WAS LIKE, HE STARTS LAUGHING AND HE'S LIKE,
YEAH, I THOUGHT THAT WOULD HAPPEN THIS WEEK OR NEXT
WEEK.
AND HE HAD ME ON SOME SORT OF LIKE PLAN AND IT WAS
POWERFUL.
AND SO THEN WE WENT THROUGH A MEDICALLY
SUPERVISED DETOX, WHICH WAS REALLY IT WAS HARD.
REBECCA: REALLY?
MIKE: OH, I WAS EATING LIKE A PINT OF ICE CREAM A DAY.
MY BLOOD SUGAR WAS CRASHING OUT AND IT WAS
LIKE INTENSE,
BECAUSE I WAS,
YEAH, IT WAS VERY INTENSE.
REBECCA: HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU?
MIKE: IT WAS WEEKS AND WEEKS.
I MEAN.
IT WAS NOT, BECAUSE
IT'S LIKE A PROGRESSIVE THING YOU DO BECAUSE IT'S
YOU CAN'T JUST IMMEDIATELY BECAUSE YOUR BODY WILL
RECOIL.
IT WAS.
AND WHAT'S SO --
REBECCA: SHOWS HOW AWFUL IT IS.
MIKE: YES.
HERE'S WHAT'S CRAZIER.
YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU'RE AN ALCOHOLIC, YOU CRAVE I
MEAN, YOU HAVE YOUR FAVORITES.
YOU HAVE YOUR THING.
WHATEVER.
I BELIEVE THAT WHATEVER HAPPENED TO ME
BIOLOGICALLY ALSO HAPPENED TO ME SPIRITUALLY BECAUSE
I AM AT THIS POINT, LIKE REPULSED BY THE SMELL OF
IT.
THE LOOK LIKE I CAN'T EVEN LOOK AT IT.
IT'S AND WHICH I BELIEVE IS SUPERNATURAL.
THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE.
YOU KNOW.
REBECCA: THAT IS AN AMAZING STORY. THAT WAS SO POWERFUL
ABOUT HIM HAVING YOU GO TO THOSE SPOTS BECAUSE YOU
WERE LIKE, GOD, WHERE ARE YOU?
AND THEN HE LITERALLY HAD YOU GO EACH OF THESE
DIFFERENT PLACES, AND HE BASICALLY SHOWED YOU HE
WAS THERE.
MIKE: YEAH.
REBECCA: DO YOU FEEL LIKE GOD SHOWED YOU THAT HE WAS
YOUR FATHER THROUGH ALL OF THIS?
LIKE, EVEN THOUGH IT'S LIKE YOU MIGHT NOT HAVE
HAD YOUR EARTHLY FATHER, HE'S LIKE, I'VE ALWAYS
BEEN YOUR FATHER.
DID HE GIVE YOU THAT DOWNLOAD?
MIKE: HE'S STILL DOING IT.
HE YOU KNOW, BECAUSE FATHERLESSNESS IS
SOMETHING THAT YOU DEAL WITH FOREVER.
I ALWAYS TELL PEOPLE IT'S LIKE A WOUND THAT REOPENS
IN EVERY SEASON BECAUSE, LIKE, LIKE I SAID, WHEN MY
DAUGHTER WAS BORN, IT OPENED.
YOU KNOW, AND IT WAS LIKE, WELL THEN.
BUT THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN AT EACH STAGE, IT'S LIKE,
WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT
IF I HAD A DAD?
AS A MATTER OF FACT, JUST WEEKS AGO, I WAS THINKING
ABOUT, YOU KNOW, MAN, I WISH THAT MY CHILDREN HAD
A GRANDFATHER, YOU KNOW, MY, YOU KNOW, AND AND I
WAS.
BUT I WAS SURRENDERED TO GOD IN PRAYER.
AND I SAID, YOU KNOW WHAT, GOD?
BUT YOU'RE A GOOD FATHER, AND I'M THANKFUL FOR YOU.
AND I KID YOU NOT, I'M FRIENDS WITH JOHN BEVERE.
AND I WAS DOING AN INTERVIEW WITH JOHN, AND
WHEN IT WAS OVER, HE I WENT TO GO END IT AND HE
SAID, WAIT A SECOND.
I JUST WANT TO DO ONE LAST THING.
I FEEL LIKE THE HOLY SPIRIT WANTED ME TO TELL
YOU THAT.
THAT HE THAT GOD IS A FATHER TO YOU, HE'S PROUD
OF YOU.
AND AND THEN HE GOES, AND YOU KNOW WHAT?
I JUST WANT TO SAY THIS AS A DAD IN THE FAITH.
I'M PROUD OF YOU, MIKE.
AND IT JUST WRECKED ME.
SO IT WAS LIKE, BECAUSE GOD KNEW WHAT I NEEDED
EVEN.
AND THAT WAS LIKE THREE WEEKS AGO.
REBECCA: WOW. THAT'S SO COOL.
MIKE: SO IT'S LIKE, GOD, I THINK THE THING IS, IF THE
FATHER WOUND HAS POTENTIAL TO OPEN IN EVERY SEASON,
THEN THE HEAVENLY, OUR HEAVENLY FATHER CAN HEAL
IT IN EVERY SEASON.
BUT BUT I THINK WHAT I GOT BETTER AT IS GOING TO HIM.
NOT ALCOHOL, GOING TO HIM INSTEAD OF WHATEVER ELSE
YOU KNOW.
JONATHAN: AND ONE THING THAT YOU MENTIONED EARLIER ON WAS
THAT YOU'RE YOU HAVE BEEN A FATHER TO OTHER GUYS,
WHICH I THOUGHT THAT WHILE I WAS HEARING YOUR STORY,
I THOUGHT HOW AMAZING THAT IS TO HAVE, YOU KNOW, YOU
DIDN'T HAVE A DAD FROM ONE YEARS OLD ON.
BUT YET THE LOVE OF THE FATHER IS SO DEEPLY
INSTILLED IN YOU, AND WHATEVER REVELATION GOD
HAS GIVEN YOU, YOU'RE ABLE TO SOW INTO OTHER PEOPLE
IN A WAY THAT A FATHER WOULD.
DO YOU FEEL LIKE GOD SUPERNATURALLY GAVE YOU
THAT DESIRE TO FATHER OTHERS?
DO YOU FEEL LIKE IT JUST HAPPENED ORGANICALLY?
MIKE: WELL, WHAT'S SO WEIRD IS LIKE, TECHNICALLY, I
HATE SOCIAL MEDIA.
I THINK IT'S TOXIC.
I THINK IT'S, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER.
JONATHAN: IT IS.
REBECCA: YEAH, IT IS, LIKE WE FEEL THE SAME.
MIKE: YEAH.
SO FOR YEARS, I NEVER REALLY DID IT.
I WAS LIKE, NO, I'M A REAL PREACHER.
I DON'T NEED SOCIAL MEDIA.
I'M NOT ONE OF THOSE CHRISTIAN INFLUENCERS.
I'M NOT CRINGEY.
AND WHEN THE PANDEMIC HIT, MY WIFE WAS LIKE, MIKE,
JUST DO WHAT YOU DO IN REAL LIFE IN IN ONLINE.
SO ANYWAYS, THE ONLINE MINISTRY EXPLODED, LIKE WE
MENTIONED.
BUT HERE'S WHAT'S WEIRD.
I COME FROM A SICILIAN FAMILY, SO I CALLED MY DAD
WHEN HE WAS STILL ALIVE.
WHAT LITTLE INTERACTIONS WE HAD WHEN WE WERE A KID.
I CALLED HIM PAPA.
SO THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN ON THE INTERNET ONE DAY I WAS
TEACHING ABOUT THE FATHER WOUNDS AND THE FATHER'S
HEART AND ALL THAT.
AND SOMEBODY IN THE COMMENT SECTION SAID,
WE'RE GOING TO START CALLING YOU PAPA SIGS.
AND BECAUSE MY LAST NAME, SIGNORELLI.
JONATHAN: THAT'S A DOPE NICKNAME.
MIKE: YEAH, PAPA SIGS.
REBECCA: I LOVE PAPA SIGS.
MIKE: AND THEN ALL
THE COMMENTS AND BECAUSE IT WAS A LIVE
STREAM, THEY ALL STARTED SAYING, YEAH, THAT'S IT,
PAPA SIGS, PAPA SIGS.
AND IT WAS SO FUNNY BECAUSE IT WAS LIKE THEY
STARTED CALLING ME AND THAT BECAME A JOKE OF
LIKE, YOU'RE PAPA SIGS, YOU'RE PAPA SIGS.
AND IT WAS LIKE HOW THE LORD FLIPPED THAT ON ME.
TO WHERE LIKE --
JONATHAN: THAT'S SUCH A GOD THING.
MIKE: OH, IT'S SUCH A
GOD THING.
SO YEAH.
SO I'LL GO TO PLACES ALL OVER THE WORLD LONDON,
THESE DIFFERENT COUNTRIES, DIFFERENT CITIES, AND I'LL
BE SIGNING BOOKS AND THERE'LL BE LIKE GROWN
WOMEN CRYING, SAYING LIKE, I NEVER HAD A DAD, BUT
WHEN I WATCH YOU ONLINE, I JUST FEEL LIKE YOU'RE A
FATHER AND I JUST FEEL THE LOVE OF THE HEAVENLY
FATHER THROUGH.
I KNOW THAT YOU'RE NOT.
YOU KNOW, IT'S ALL ABOUT GOD.
BUT LIKE GOD'S USED
YOU AS AN EXTENSION OF HIS HEART.
AND IT'S IT'S JUST A WEIRD THING.
REBECCA: SORRY, I'M LIKE,
AMEN, AMEN.
YES, BROTHER.
[ LAUGHING ] I'M JUST REALLY INTO IT.
BUT FROM, LIKE, A RECORDING STANDPOINT, IT'S
GONNA LOOK DUMB.
BUT IT'S OKAY.
MIKE: NO, YOU GO THERE.
REBECCA: I WILL HAVE TO SAY THE OTHER THING.
WHEN YOU SAID THAT IN EVERY.
I'VE NEVER HEARD ANYONE SAY THAT.
I FEEL LIKE THERE'S SUCH WISDOM IN THAT WORD.
AND EVERY SEASON, THE FATHER WOUND CAN BE
OPENED.
BUT IN EVERY OPPORTUNITY, IT'S A WAY FOR YOU TO MEET
WITH THE FATHER IN A NEW WAY.
AND YOU SAID, I LEARNED TO TURN TO GOD AND NOT TO
ALCOHOL.
AND IT'S LIKE EVERYONE HAS THAT THING.
IT'S JUST DIFFERENT FOR EVERYONE.
AND SO THAT'S A WORD FOR EVERYONE.
LIKE LEARN NOT TO TURN TO THAT THING, BUT TO THE
FATHER
IN THOSE SITUATIONS.
AND IT WILL BECOME LESS AND LESS EVEN, LIKE HAVE A
HOLD ON YOU.
MIKE: WELL,
IT'S LIKE I'M GETTING WEEPY BECAUSE MY WIFE HAD
THE BEST DAD AND HE WAS A HERO OF MINE.
HIS NAME WAS RANDY, AND IN THE LATTER YEARS OF HIS
LIFE HE WAS A PILLAR OF OUR CHURCH.
ME AND HIM, ACTUALLY, AFTER I RECONCILED WITH MY
WIFE.
IF YOU THINK ABOUT IF ANY MAN ON THE PLANET WAS
GOING TO HATE MY GUTS, IT WAS GOING TO BE HER DAD.
AND HE DID.
BUT THEN.
BUT THEN WHEN HE SAW THE CHANGES IN MY LIFE, HE
KNEW IT WAS REAL.
AND HE EMBRACED ME.
AND WE REBUILT OUR RELATIONSHIP AND WE ENDED
UP BECOMING LIKE BEST FRIENDS.
WHICH WAS SUCH A GOD THING.
AND THEN HE UNEXPECTEDLY PASSED AWAY.
AND IT WAS SO WEIRD BECAUSE I WATCHED MY WIFE
GO THROUGH THE ORPHAN AND ALL THAT STUFF, AND IT WAS
LIKE THIS WEIRD HOW IN GOD'S LIKE I CALL IT FATE.
I DON'T KNOW THE RIGHT WORD.
FORGIVE ME, BUT IT WAS LIKE SHE SUFFERED SO MUCH
BECAUSE OF MY FATHERLESSNESS.
BUT THEN WHEN SHE BECAME FATHERLESS AND I NEVER
THOUGHT ABOUT HER BEING FATHERLESS, I SAW HER.
THE ANGER, THE THESE PEOPLE IN MINISTRY DON'T.
THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND BECAUSE THEY HAVE A DAD.
AND I SEEN HER ACTING, HOW I ACTED, AND I SEEN THE
TOXICITY IN HER BUILDING UP.
AND IT WAS THIS WEIRD TWIST OF FATE WHERE I WAS
LIKE, I GRABBED HER HAND AND I WAS LIKE, LET ME
SHOW YOU HOW YOU CAN GET HEALED FROM THE FATHER
WOUND.
AND I WAS ABLE TO WALK MY WIFE.
SO IT WAS LIKE SHE REAPED IN THE SAME AREA THAT SHE
SOWED.
SO IT WAS LIKE.
SHE AND IT WAS LIKE THIS BEAUTIFUL THING.
JULIE: AND, MAN, I'LL TELL YOU WHAT IT DID A HEALING.
YOU KNOW, WHEN I LOST MY DAD AND WALKING THROUGH
THE GRIEF OF THAT WHICH I KNOW, YOU KNOW, YOU GUYS
UNDERSTAND.
BUT YOU KNOW, AND AND MY STORY IS DIFFERENT THAN
HIS, YOU KNOW, MY DAD WAS GREAT AND AWESOME, AND I'M
SO THANKFUL FOR THAT.
BUT GOING THROUGH OUR MARRIAGE STUFF, I ALWAYS
HAD SO MUCH RESENTMENT, YOU KNOW, JUST FOR THE
THINGS THAT WOULD RISE UP IN DIFFERENT TIMES, EVEN
BEING RECONCILED BECAUSE IT'S LIKE, YOU KNOW, YOU
DON'T HAVE A DAD WHO CARES.
50% OF AMERICA DOESN'T HAVE A DAD.
YOU KNOW, THAT'S HOW YOU FEEL LIKE YOUR
SELFISHNESS.
AND THEN WHEN YOU LOSE YOUR OWN, THE EMPATHY OF
THAT FATHERLESSNESS IT HEALED ME IN WAYS THAT I
DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THAT I NEEDED TO BE HEALED STILL
IN WITHIN OUR MARRIAGE.
AND IT WAS LIKE, MAN, I HAD SO MUCH MORE.
NOW, GRANTED, YOU KNOW, SHOULD HE HAVE BROKEN ALL
OF OUR PLATES ONE TIME?
NO, HE PROBABLY SHOULDN'T HAVE DONE THAT.
BUT IT WAS LIKE...
JONATHAN: POOR PAPA SIGS.
REBECCA: POOR PAPA SIGS.
JULIE: BUT IT WAS LIKE I LOOKED AT IT DIFFERENTLY.
AND I THOUGHT, I WANT TO THROW ALL THE PLATES.
I'M MAD.
I LOST MY DAD UNEXPECTEDLY.
AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE I WANTED TO BE ANGRY AND I.
AND NOT THAT THAT ANGER DIRECTED AT YOUR SPOUSE IS
OKAY, BUT IT'S LIKE, MAN, THE FORGIVENESS.
IT'S LIKE, I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THERE WERE STILL
AREAS I NEEDED TO FORGIVE HIM.
SO IT WAS LIKE US, YOU KNOW, THAT THAT FATHER
WOUND.
YEAH.
IT'S HARD.
BUT IF YOU COME INTO AGREEMENT IN MARRIAGE, NOT
LIKE TOXIC TRAUMA BONDING, BUT LIKE, TRUE
LIKE WE'RE GONNA HEAL TOGETHER.
YEAH, IT WAS A WHOLE NOTHER LEVEL
I THINK IN OUR
MARRIAGE.
MIKE: YOU WOULD SAY THINGS LIKE, I THINK I UNDERSTAND
NOW.
REBECCA: OH, YEAH.
MIKE: BECAUSE SHE WOULD BE SO UPSET.
JONATHAN: YEAH.
IT WAS LIKE HER PAIN GAVE HER EYES TO SEE
WHAT YOUR
PAIN WAS LIKE.
MIKE: WE'RE LEADING A MULTI-SITE NATIONAL CHURCH, AND IT'S
FATHER'S DAY, AND SHE'S WATCHING EVERYBODY WITH
THEIR FATHER, AND SHE'S LIKE, YOU KNOW, AND SHE'S
WEEPING BEHIND STAGE.
AND THEN SHE'S LIKE, MIKE, I GET IT NOW.
AND SO IT WAS LIKE THIS WEIRD THING WHERE, LIKE
YOU SAID, IT WASN'T TRAUMA BONDING.
IT WASN'T CODEPENDENCY, BUT IT WAS EMPATHY.
AND IT WAS LIKE A DEEPER EMPATHY OF LIKE, IT
DOESN'T IT DOESN'T JUSTIFY DOING THE WRONG THING.
BUT I THINK I UNDERSTAND YOUR PAIN IN A WAY THAT I
DIDN'T UNDERSTAND IT, WHICH IS ACTUALLY MAKING
IT EASIER TO FORGIVE IN AREAS I NEED TO FORGIVE.
REBECCA: YEAH, TOTALLY.
NO, IT MAKES COMPLETE SENSE TO ME.
AND WHAT WAS COOL IS THE BIBLE SAYS WHEN GOD
COMFORTS US IN OUR PAIN, HE ENABLES.
HE EMPOWERS US TO COMFORT OTHERS.
AND SO HE COMFORTED YOU AND YOUR FATHERLESSNESS,
WHICH LED YOU TO BE ABLE TO COMFORT HER AND HER
FATHERLESSNESS.
AND IT GAVE YOU THE INSIGHT.
AND I THINK ABOUT ME.
ONE OF THE JOURNEYS GOD HAS TAKEN ME ON IS I THINK
THAT'S WHY I JUST I'VE COME TO A PLACE WHERE I
REALLY IF I FIND MYSELF JUDGING SOMEONE OR A
SITUATION, I'M IMMEDIATELY REPENT.
BUT I'VE JUST SEEN ENOUGH AND GONE THROUGH ENOUGH
STUFF WHERE IT'S LIKE, YOU REALLY CAN'T JUDGE PEOPLE
BECAUSE IT'S LIKE UNTIL YOU UNDERSTAND, LIKE, AND
YOU STEP INTO THEIR SHOES, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT'S
LIKE.
AND SO I WOULD JUST ENCOURAGE ANY CHRISTIAN,
DON'T BE IN THE SEAT OF JUDGMENT AGAINST YOUR
BROTHER, BUT JUST LOVE THEM AND PRAY FOR THEM AND
COVER THEM.
YOU KNOW, THE BIBLE SAYS LOVE COVERS A MULTITUDE OF
SINS.
AND IT'S LIKE WHEN YOU BEGIN TO EXPERIENCE SOME
OF THAT, WHAT THEY WENT THROUGH, YOU'RE LIKE, OH
MY GOSH, NOW I UNDERSTAND, BUT I THINK THAT'S
BEAUTIFUL.
I LOVE LIKE Y'ALL'S TRANSPARENCY IN YOUR
MARRIAGE AND HOW LIKE, GOD'S BROUGHT YOU THROUGH.
LIKE IT JUST SHOWS LIKE IF TWO PEOPLE CAN BE
SURRENDERED AND CHOOSE TO LOVE AND SERVE ONE
ANOTHER, IT'S LIKE, AND YOU CHOOSE TO KEEP GOING
TOGETHER, IT'S LIKE GOD CAN WORK ANYTHING OUT.
AND I JUST LOVE.
DON'T YOU JUST LOVE SEEING THAT?
JONATHAN: YEAH, I LOVE IT.
REBECCA: HOW MANY YEARS
HAVE YOU BEEN MARRIED?
MIKE: 20 YEARS.
JULIE: WE JUST CELEBRATED 20 YEARS.
REBECCA: OH,
THAT'S SO EXCITING.
JULIE: 20 YEARS.
IT'S CRAZY.
REBECCA: THAT IS CRAZY.
SO 20 YEARS TOGETHER.
JULIE: 20 YEARS OF MARRIAGE.
REBECCA: AND ACCOMPLISHED SO MUCH AND GONE THROUGH SO MUCH.
HOW LONG WAS Y'ALL'S HEALING JOURNEY THROUGH
ALL OF THAT?
MIKE: ABOUT 19.5.
JONATHAN: YEAH, EXACTLY.
[ LAUGHING ] JONATHAN: ONGOING.
REBECCA: THAT'S A GOOD WORD.
I MEAN, I'M STILL THREE QUARTERS.
MIKE: WHEN WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THAT LAST NIGHT --
JONATHAN: DOES IT EVER END?
MIKE: YEAH.
LIKE LIKE WE'RE WE'RE STILL GOING THROUGH IT.
REBECCA: THAT'S HOW I FEEL.
MIKE: AND TALKING THINGS THROUGH AND
LIKE, YEAH.
JONATHAN: THAT'S TRUE.
THAT'S THE REALNESS OF IT.
REBECCA: I MEAN, BUT NO ONE
PRESENTS IT THAT WAY.
I FEEL LIKE, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
JONATHAN: I FEEL LIKE IT HAPPENS IN STAGES AND LEVELS,
LIKE YOU LOOK BACK --
REBECCA: SAME WITH SANCTIFICATION.
JONATHAN: LIKE LAST YEAR, THE BATTLES THAT THE LORD
HELPED YOU OVERCOME ARE DIFFERENT THAN THE NEW
SEASON THAT YOU'RE IN.
AND IT'S LIKE THIS JOURNEY BECAUSE WE LIVE IN A
FALLEN WORLD.
IT'S NEVER GOING TO END.
REBECCA: IT'S NEVER GOING TO END.
THAT'S GOOD.
JONATHAN: BUT WE'RE GOING TO GET LEVELED UP IN DIFFERENT IN
EACH SEASON.
REBECCA: IF WE ALLOW HIM TO.
JONATHAN: 19 AND A HALF OR 20 OR ONGOING.
JULIE: YEAH.
YEAH, YEAH.
I MEAN THAT TRUST BUILDING PHASE TRUSTING
HIM, YOU KNOW.
WAS HE TRULY SOBER?
WAS HE TRULY, YOU KNOW, WALKING IN INTEGRITY?
I MEAN THAT THAT WAS MANY YEARS.
THAT TRUST TAKES YEARS.
YOU KNOW, TRUST IS EASY TO LOSE AND HARD TO BUILD.
SO THAT TOOK A LOT OF TIME.
I WOULD SAY THAT WAS A 5 TO 7 YEAR JOURNEY AT THE
BEGINNING OF OUR MARRIAGE.
BUT IT'S LIKE, MAN, YOU KNOW, AND THEN WHEN YOUR
KIDS ARE LITTLE NOW, YOU'RE JUGGLING LIKE THE
HARDNESS OF LITTLE KIDS.
BUT NOW THAT THEY'RE OLDER, NOW WE'RE JUGGLING
LIKE,
HOW DO WE SPEND OUR TIME TOGETHER?
YOU KNOW, LIKE WE'RE TOGETHER A LOT MORE OR,
YOU KNOW, THE KIDS ARE REALLY BUSY, SO WE'RE
TOGETHER LESS, AND IT'S LIKE YOU'RE ALWAYS GOING
TO HAVE SOMETHING TO NAVIGATE.
I THINK THE BENEFIT FOR US WAS GOING THROUGH ALL THE
CRAZINESS AT THE BEGINNING.
[ LAUGHING ] JULIE: WE GOT THAT ALL OUT OF
THE WAY, AND NOW WE'RE JUST GOING THROUGH THE CRAZINESS OF
LIFE.
IT'S JUST THE
SAME SKILL.
JONATHAN: BUT GOD, HE WAS LAYING THAT FOUNDATION.
REBECCA: YEAH, THAT'S WHAT I WAS THINKING.
JONATHAN: TO THIS NEW LEVEL THAT YOU'RE AT.
YOU KNOW, YOU TOOK YOU THROUGH ALL OF THAT, ALL
OF THOSE TRIALS.
BECAUSE NOW LOOK AT ALL THE FRUIT THAT'S COME OF
IT.
AND WHAT'S BEEN...
REBECCA: AND IF YOU
HADN'T DEALT WITH IT, IF YOU WOULD HAVE
TRANSITIONED INTO YOUR STUFF IN NEW YORK, YOU
WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ABLE TO HANDLE IT.
JULIE: NO, IT WOULD HAVE...
JONATHAN: IT WOULD HAVE BROKEN.
JULIE: IT WAS IT WOULD HAVE BROKE US AND WOULD HAVE
DAMAGED SO MANY PEOPLE.
AND I'M SO THANKFUL THAT THE LORD WE HAD THE THE
BENEFIT OF WALKING THROUGH THAT STUFF AND OBSCURITY.
AND SO I THINK IF ANYBODY HERE IS LISTENING AND THEY
MAYBE THEY WANT TO DO MINISTRY OR THEY WANT TO
DO THAT, BUT THEY HAVE A LOT GOING ON.
WALK THROUGH YOUR STUFF AND OBSCURITY.
THAT IS A BLESSING.
>> AND I'M SO THANKFUL THAT LIKE, WE GET ENJOY
OUR MARRIAGE AND WE WERE ABLE TO STRUGGLE IN OUR
MARRIAGE WHILE WE WERE IN OBSCURITY.
THAT WAS A BLESSING.
MIKE: YEAH, IT WAS.
JULIE: I'M REALLY
GRATEFUL FOR THAT.
JONATHAN: NOW YOU CAN JUST MINISTER FROM ALL OF THAT,
YOU KNOW, MINISTER TO PEOPLE, BECAUSE THIS IS GOING TO
TOUCH A LOT OF PEOPLE'S LIVES.
PEOPLE THAT ARE LISTENING, THEY HEAR THE STRUGGLES,
THEY HEAR THE STORY, THEY HEAR THE PAIN, THE
REALNESS OF IT.
GOD'S GOING TO MEET THEM WHERE THEY'RE AT.
AND I'M EXCITED TO COME CHECK OUT Y'ALL'S CHURCH
YOU HAVE.
WE HAVE FOUR DIFFERENT STATES WE CAN GO TO.
REBECCA: TAKE YOUR PICK.
JONATHAN: NEW YORK, NEW JERSEY.
[ LAUGHING ] MIKE: PLEASE COME.
JONATHAN: WE CAN PICK ALL THESE
CAMPUSES.
MIKE: DO A FREE
TOUR WITH IT AND EVERYTHING.
REBECCA: GO SOMEWHERE WARM.
JONATHAN: YEAH, THAT'S A GOOD POINT.
JULIE: WE'RE LIKE, MIAMI.
[ LAUGHING ] MIKE: YEAH, YEAH, YEAH.
REBECCA: I DO WANT TO,
BEFORE WE WRAP, I DO WANT YOU TO TOUCH A LITTLE BIT
ON THE BOOK AND KIND OF SHARE WITH PEOPLE WHAT GOT
YOU TO WRITE IT AND WHO SHOULD BE READING IT.
MIKE: YEAH.
SO A LOT OF PEOPLE ASK ME, LIKE, YOU KNOW, RETRACE
YOUR STEPS.
LIKE, TELL ME, LIKE, GIVE ME THE FORMULA.
WHAT DID YOU DO THAT WORKS?
REBECCA: PEOPLE ALWAYS WANT A FORMULA.
MIKE: THEY DO.
THEY DO.
SO IT WAS LIKE, AND OF COURSE WE PASTOR A LOT OF
PEOPLE.
ACROSS ALL OF THESE CAMPUSES.
AND I SAID, IF I WERE TO SIT DOWN AND TAKE SOMEBODY
THROUGH A JOURNEY ONE ON ONE, BECAUSE IN THE EARLY
DAYS OF OUR CHURCH, WE STARTED WITH ONLY 18
PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, AND IT WAS LIKE AT ONE POINT, I --
JONATHAN: HEBREW NUMBER FOR LIFE.
MIKE: REALLY?
REBECCA: WELL, TO LIFE.
JONATHAN: NO.
REBECCA: EDIT THAT OUT.
NO, JUST KIDDING.
[ LAUGHING ] OKAY.
JONATHAN: SHE'S SO PROUD.
MIKE: I LOVE THAT. IS 18 THE NUMBER...?
JONATHAN: 18 IS THE NUMBER OF LIFE.
AND IT'S LIKE REALLY,
YOU COULD ASK THE RABBI ABOUT IT WHEN YOU SEE HIM
ON SUNDAY.
REBECCA: YEAH.
HE SHOULD.
JONATHAN: JUST TELL HIM,
I STARTED WITH MY CHURCH WITH 18 MEN, 18 PEOPLE.
IS THAT SIGNIFICANT AT ALL?
AND HE'LL JUST UNPACK IT.
IT'S SUCH AN IMPORTANT NUMBER ANYWAYS.
MIKE: OH, YOU'RE ABOUT TO MAKE ME CRY.
JULIE: WE'RE GOING TO BE...
REBECCA: I DID NOT
KNOW THAT.
WOW.
REBECCA: THAT'S WHY I BRING HIM ON THE PODCAST,
JUST FOR LITTLE
MORSELS LIKE THAT.
MIKE: THAT'S AWESOME.
OKAY, I'LL ASK HIM.
JONATHAN: YEAH,
YOU WILL.
MIKE: OH, THAT'S CRAZY.
YEAH.
WE STARTED WITH 18 PEOPLE, AND WHAT I WAS SAYING WAS
I WOULD MEET WITH EVEN UP TO THE POINT WHERE OUR
CHURCH WAS A COUPLE HUNDRED PEOPLE.
I PERSONALLY MET WITH EVERY SINGLE PERSON.
AND I WOULD WALK THEM THROUGH JOURNEYS AND, YOU
KNOW, JUST VERY DEEP PASTORAL COUNSELING.
AND SO AS OUR CHURCH BEGAN TO GROW AND EXPAND, I
RAISED UP PASTORS, SHEPHERDS AND TRY TO
DOWNLOAD MY HEART INTO THEIR HEART AND, YOU KNOW,
THE CULTURE AND THE DNA OF OUR CHURCH.
BUT THEN I WAS LIKE, IF I COULD PERSONALLY SIT WITH
SOMEONE, WHAT WOULD I HOW WOULD I TAKE THEM ON THIS
JOURNEY?
AND THAT'S WHAT THE BOOK IS.
IT'S 12 CHAPTERS, AND I MEAN, IT'S VERY
INTERACTIVE.
THERE'S QR CODES IN THERE WHERE YOU SCAN IT AND GO
TO VIDEOS THAT ARE LIKE THAT, YOU KNOW, JUST THAT
AREN'T ONLINE ANYWHERE ELSE.
THERE'S THINGS TO FILL IN.
AS A MATTER OF FACT, THIS IS A QUICK SIDE NOTE.
I HAD A WOMAN WHO IS JUST GETTING HER DOCTORATE
RIGHT NOW IN PSYCHOLOGY, AND SHE READ THE BOOK AND
SHE WAS LIKE, WHERE DID YOU GET SOME OF THESE
DIAGRAMS AND THINGS THAT YOU HAVE IN THERE?
AND I SAID, I JUST GOT THEM IN PRAYER.
AS I WAS PREPARING FOR THE BOOK, SHE WAS LIKE, I'M
JUST GETTING MY DOCTORATE NOW, AND THIS IS CUTTING
EDGE PSYCHOLOGY.
AND YOU DIDN'T.
AND SHE WAS SHOCKED THAT I DIDN'T KNOW THAT.
AND I WAS LIKE, I FEEL LIKE I RECEIVED IT IN
PRAYER AND JUST KIND OF PUT IN THE BOOK WHAT I.
SO THE BOOK IS VERY UNIQUE IN THAT WAY.
IT DEALS WITH THE DEMONIC, BUT IT ALSO DEALS WITH THE
BIOLOGICAL, BUT IT ALSO DEALS WITH THE HEREDITARY.
SO IT'S LIKE MORE I TRY TO BE LIKE A WHOLE COMPLETE
PICTURE.
AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL BE HELPED BY
IT.
JONATHAN: YEAH.
AND I SAW YESTERDAY YOU SIGNED A COUPLE COPIES IN
BARNES AND NOBLE IN SOUTHLAKE, TEXAS.
SO GO TO YOUR BARNES AND NOBLE IN SOUTHLAKE,
TEXAS.
YOU MIGHT GET A SIGNED COPY BY PAPA SIGS.
MIKE: I PUT A LITTLE MESSAGE IN THERE IN EACH ONE, TWO
LITTLE SECRET MESSAGES.
ANYWHERE I GO, I GO TO THE BARNES AND NOBLE
IF THEY IF THEY HAVE COPIES AND I DO THAT.
YEAH.
JULIE: YEAH, I FORCE HIM TO.
I'M LIKE, WE'RE GOING IN THERE.
WE'RE FINDING YOUR BOOK.
MIKE: AGAIN, IT'S CRINGEY TO ME, YOU KNOW?
BUT SHE WAS LIKE, SHE'S THE ONE WHO
FORCED ME TO GO.
JULIE: IT'S A BIG DEAL. I'M A PROUD WIFE.
I GAVE MY WHOLE LIFE FOR THAT BOOK.
[ LAUGHING ] JONATHAN: YEAH, EXACTLY.
PEOPLE NEED
TO READ IT.
REBECCA: IT'S LIKE Y'ALL'S BOOK,
REALLY.
MIKE: THAT IS SO TRUE.
JULIE: JUST KIDDING.
REBECCA: THAT'S SO COOL.
JULIE: I LOVE IT.
REBECCA: WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING ON.
AND I THINK FOR ANYONE WHO WANTS TO GET CONNECTED,
WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO GET CONNECTED?
MIKE: I WOULD SAY IF THEY GO TO MIKESIGNORELLI.COM.
BECAUSE EVERYTHING'S LINKED THERE.
REBECCA: ALL RIGHT.
AWESOME.
DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING YOU WANT TO END ON?
JONATHAN: NO.
JUST APPRECIATE Y'ALL.
MIKE: YEAH.
SAME.
JULIE: THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.
MIKE: YOU GUYS ARE AMAZING.
THIS WAS AWESOME.
JULIE: SO GOOD. THANK YOU.