WEBVTT 00:00:08.466 --> 00:00:10.067 Rebecca: Hey guys, welcome back to the podcast. 00:00:10.100 --> 00:00:13.167 I am here with Catherine Mullins Robbins. 00:00:13.200 --> 00:00:14.533 Catherine: Well said. 00:00:14.566 --> 00:00:15.967 Rebecca: A fellow third namer just like me. 00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:17.300 Catherine: That's great. 00:00:17.333 --> 00:00:18.633 We're working through it. I love it. 00:00:18.667 --> 00:00:19.967 All the names. 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:21.300 Rebecca: All the names. 00:00:21.333 --> 00:00:22.633 Catherine: It's a big mouthful, but we're thankful for it. 00:00:22.667 --> 00:00:23.967 Rebecca: It's a solid name though. 00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:25.300 I like it. 00:00:25.333 --> 00:00:28.100 Okay, so you're awesome, by the way. 00:00:28.133 --> 00:00:29.633 I've been getting to talk to Catherine off screen. 00:00:29.667 --> 00:00:32.733 So, there's already like a good vibe here, but for anyone who 00:00:32.767 --> 00:00:35.900 like doesn't know your story, give us some of your testimony. 00:00:35.933 --> 00:00:37.867 Like, did you grow up in a Christian home? 00:00:37.900 --> 00:00:39.633 How did you come to faith in Christ? 00:00:39.666 --> 00:00:42.233 Catherine: Yeah, so I definitely grew up in a Christian home and 00:00:42.267 --> 00:00:44.800 also I'm really excited to be talking to you today. 00:00:44.833 --> 00:00:46.134 Rebecca: Aww, that's how I feel. 00:00:46.167 --> 00:00:48.733 Catherine: Listen, I mean I feel like I found a new friend. 00:00:48.767 --> 00:00:52.500 So, you have a great heart, good people, all the things, and I 00:00:52.534 --> 00:00:54.100 just love it. 00:00:54.133 --> 00:00:56.934 So my testimony, I did, I grew up in a good home. 00:00:56.967 --> 00:01:00.267 My parents are amazing, my brothers are amazing. 00:01:00.300 --> 00:01:03.400 The Lord was really faithful with that, and I feel like I 00:01:03.434 --> 00:01:06.334 tell people I'm a product of a good environment and I think 00:01:06.367 --> 00:01:09.200 it's really important today, you know, there's just so much 00:01:09.233 --> 00:01:12.633 craziness in the world, but to tell people, "Hey, you can raise 00:01:12.666 --> 00:01:16.634 your kids well and trust the Lord with their future," and 00:01:16.667 --> 00:01:18.800 they don't have to know Egypt, they don't have to know the ways 00:01:18.834 --> 00:01:20.134 of the world. 00:01:20.167 --> 00:01:21.500 And so, that's really my testimony. 00:01:21.534 --> 00:01:23.900 I used to be kind of embarrassed about it because people would 00:01:23.934 --> 00:01:25.267 say, "Hey, do you want to do a podcast?" 00:01:25.300 --> 00:01:26.833 And then they'd ask that question. 00:01:26.866 --> 00:01:28.800 And I'd be like, "Well, I've loved Jesus my whole life," and 00:01:28.833 --> 00:01:32.400 they're like, "Can you give us a little more details with that?" 00:01:32.434 --> 00:01:35.033 And, you know, they were expecting to say, you know, for 00:01:35.066 --> 00:01:37.100 me to say, " I came out of drug addiction," and yeah. 00:01:37.133 --> 00:01:38.834 I had all these crazy things and I just didn't. 00:01:38.867 --> 00:01:42.534 I've just always known the presence of the Lord and now 00:01:42.567 --> 00:01:45.200 that I have a kid of my own, I'm just so thankful for that 00:01:45.233 --> 00:01:49.467 testimony and I mean, I'm sure your prayer is as well, all of 00:01:49.500 --> 00:01:52.700 our prayers is that that would be our children's testimonies. 00:01:52.734 --> 00:01:54.067 Rebecca: Absolutely. 00:01:54.100 --> 00:01:57.067 And you know for you, because, you know, there's one thing to 00:01:57.100 --> 00:01:59.533 be raised in a Christian home. 00:01:59.567 --> 00:02:02.133 Not only that, your parents were in ministry. 00:02:02.166 --> 00:02:03.467 They were pastors. 00:02:03.500 --> 00:02:05.600 Okay, so you're a pastor's kid. 00:02:05.633 --> 00:02:08.233 So, you grow up in this environment of so much 00:02:08.267 --> 00:02:09.600 Jesus, right? 00:02:09.634 --> 00:02:12.033 But there's a difference between your parents's faith and 00:02:12.066 --> 00:02:13.367 your faith. 00:02:13.400 --> 00:02:14.734 When did it become your own? 00:02:14.767 --> 00:02:17.200 Catherine: That's a really good question too. 00:02:17.233 --> 00:02:21.167 When you have parents that are pouring into you, again, I was 00:02:21.200 --> 00:02:24.000 so thankful that they really made that thought, put that 00:02:24.033 --> 00:02:26.033 thought in my head at an early age. 00:02:26.066 --> 00:02:27.800 Rebecca: It sounds like they really discipled you. 00:02:27.834 --> 00:02:29.133 Catherine: Yeah, they did. 00:02:29.167 --> 00:02:31.334 And they didn't make Christianity weird. 00:02:31.367 --> 00:02:32.700 Rebecca: I know mine didn't either. 00:02:32.734 --> 00:02:34.267 I'm so thankful for that. 00:02:34.300 --> 00:02:36.634 Or religious, like they weren't religious. 00:02:36.667 --> 00:02:37.967 Catherine: Absolutely. 00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:40.767 Like they made ministry important and they made church 00:02:40.800 --> 00:02:43.966 important and they made Christian community important. 00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:47.966 And they taught me the value of that, but I also played sports 00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:52.633 and I took voice lessons and just normal things growing up, 00:02:52.666 --> 00:02:54.433 you know, and I did do a Christian--have Christian 00:02:54.467 --> 00:02:58.000 education which I love, but I think it was just kind of a 00:02:58.033 --> 00:03:00.900 process that they always told me is that, "Your relationship with 00:03:00.934 --> 00:03:03.233 God is you and him. 00:03:03.267 --> 00:03:06.333 And, you know, it's you approaching him and you getting 00:03:06.366 --> 00:03:07.666 to know him. 00:03:07.700 --> 00:03:09.167 And it's not our faith, it's your faith." 00:03:09.200 --> 00:03:11.000 And, you know, there were different moments obviously when 00:03:11.033 --> 00:03:14.633 you move out of the house that that becomes very real and 00:03:14.666 --> 00:03:18.033 they--what kind of probably seems like big things at the 00:03:18.067 --> 00:03:21.666 time, they're not necessarily big scenarios, but they teach us 00:03:21.700 --> 00:03:23.966 to really depend on the Lord when we move out of the house. 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:26.933 And so, I had those moments along the way, but the Lord is 00:03:26.967 --> 00:03:30.633 so gracious to become a best friend to us, you know, and to 00:03:30.667 --> 00:03:31.966 lead us well. 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:33.633 Rebecca: But you know what, I feel like what you're saying 00:03:33.666 --> 00:03:37.500 that's so important and for me I had to learn as an adult and 00:03:37.533 --> 00:03:40.200 I've talked to so many people is that a lot of people aren't 00:03:40.233 --> 00:03:42.667 taught how to have a relationship with God. 00:03:42.700 --> 00:03:45.200 And so, you had that relationship with God from a 00:03:45.233 --> 00:03:46.567 young age. 00:03:46.600 --> 00:03:47.967 So, you had that foundation. 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:50.766 So, there wasn't this big transition where your parents's 00:03:50.800 --> 00:03:52.133 faith became yours. 00:03:52.166 --> 00:03:55.533 That you had ownership at such a young age that it was such a 00:03:55.566 --> 00:03:58.233 natural progression versus a big shift. 00:03:58.267 --> 00:04:01.033 With me, it was like I didn't know how to have a relationship 00:04:01.066 --> 00:04:03.100 with God and I had to figure out in my adulthood. 00:04:03.133 --> 00:04:04.833 And so, I'm so adamant. 00:04:04.867 --> 00:04:07.600 So, like what you're saying with people's kids, like your 00:04:07.633 --> 00:04:09.633 testimony can be their children's testimony. 00:04:09.666 --> 00:04:10.967 That's what I want for my kids. 00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:13.300 Like I want to teach them, and I want them to have a relationship 00:04:13.333 --> 00:04:14.634 with God. 00:04:14.667 --> 00:04:16.933 You don't need to go out into the world, you know, that is a 00:04:16.967 --> 00:04:18.300 lot of people's testimony. 00:04:18.333 --> 00:04:19.633 That doesn't have to be. 00:04:19.666 --> 00:04:22.966 I think if someone is discipled well, I think you have a greater 00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:25.200 chance of not having that happen to you. 00:04:25.233 --> 00:04:26.567 Catherine: Absolutely. 00:04:26.600 --> 00:04:29.400 Well, I even think with that, we can sometimes get very 00:04:29.433 --> 00:04:33.034 religious, I think, or legalistic I should say, when we 00:04:33.067 --> 00:04:35.334 talk about our relationship with the Lord and we don't mean to, 00:04:35.367 --> 00:04:37.600 but it's like you need to read your Bible, you need to pray, 00:04:37.634 --> 00:04:38.934 you need to-- 00:04:38.967 --> 00:04:41.400 And we check off these things, you know, off of our list and my 00:04:41.433 --> 00:04:45.000 mom was always so good about putting it into perspective and 00:04:45.033 --> 00:04:48.366 so was my dad about saying we pursue the Lord in a 00:04:48.400 --> 00:04:51.233 relationship with him for the enjoyment of it. 00:04:51.266 --> 00:04:53.733 And they said, obviously they're spiritual disciplines. 00:04:53.767 --> 00:04:57.534 So, I mean, my mom, we in the morning read the Bible every 00:04:57.567 --> 00:05:00.900 morning, a chapter and it was very simple. 00:05:00.933 --> 00:05:02.834 It wasn't some long drawn out thing. 00:05:02.867 --> 00:05:04.900 It was just, "We're going to read the Bible as a family 00:05:04.933 --> 00:05:06.667 together while we're eating breakfast every morning." 00:05:06.700 --> 00:05:08.066 Rebecca: I want to do that. 00:05:08.100 --> 00:05:10.766 Catherine: It was great. It marked me. 00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:12.467 I mean, I was like a little third grader still learning to 00:05:12.500 --> 00:05:15.300 read kind of and I had my little part that I read out loud, 00:05:15.333 --> 00:05:16.767 you know. 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:20.733 But they said, you know, "The Lord wants a relationship with 00:05:20.766 --> 00:05:23.300 you and it's meant to be fun and not legalistic. 00:05:23.334 --> 00:05:25.233 So, if you miss a day, don't feel bad about it. 00:05:25.266 --> 00:05:28.800 That's not what the point of it is, it's to know God and to have 00:05:28.833 --> 00:05:30.166 a relationship with him. 00:05:30.200 --> 00:05:33.333 You know, friends don't get mad if you miss a day," you know. 00:05:33.366 --> 00:05:37.267 And--well some friends do, but I don't know about those friends. 00:05:37.300 --> 00:05:38.634 Just kidding, but yeah. 00:05:38.667 --> 00:05:43.600 So, it was great how they taught the balance of discipline when 00:05:43.633 --> 00:05:47.967 it comes to reading the Word, prayer, but also just not--it 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:49.334 not being too intense. 00:05:49.367 --> 00:05:52.367 Rebecca: But it's a real breathing relationship, living 00:05:52.400 --> 00:05:55.866 relationship, and a relationship with anyone is not a checklist. 00:05:55.900 --> 00:05:58.566 Just a checklist. Thank God. 00:05:58.600 --> 00:06:00.600 And it's not just one sided, it's not just you reading the 00:06:00.634 --> 00:06:02.100 Bible on your own or you praying. 00:06:02.134 --> 00:06:04.866 Prayer is conversational between us and God. 00:06:04.900 --> 00:06:07.667 And so, for me like growing up, I didn't really I like reading 00:06:07.700 --> 00:06:09.033 the Bible. 00:06:09.067 --> 00:06:10.367 I didn't understand. 00:06:10.400 --> 00:06:12.000 I just had Zach Windall on and he made a resource helping 00:06:12.034 --> 00:06:13.466 people understand the Bible because I was like, you know, 00:06:13.500 --> 00:06:16.833 growing up you'd be like, "What are these minor prophets 00:06:16.867 --> 00:06:18.167 talking about?" 00:06:18.200 --> 00:06:19.667 you know, or like the Gospels you're like, "What is the 00:06:19.700 --> 00:06:21.033 historical context?" you know. 00:06:21.066 --> 00:06:22.367 Catherine: What are the synoptic gospels? 00:06:22.400 --> 00:06:24.900 Rebecca: Yeah, it's just like there, you know, there's this 00:06:24.933 --> 00:06:26.266 huge, sometimes, bridge you have to cross. 00:06:26.300 --> 00:06:28.533 And so, I'm thankful for people who make tools like that and I 00:06:28.567 --> 00:06:31.167 didn't understand until we went to Bible school that the Holy 00:06:31.200 --> 00:06:34.700 Spirit is living within us and he is the one who reveals God to 00:06:34.733 --> 00:06:36.033 us through revelation. 00:06:36.067 --> 00:06:38.667 And so, we ask, "Holy Spirit, teach me through 00:06:38.700 --> 00:06:40.000 these scriptures." 00:06:40.034 --> 00:06:41.367 And it's just not something that we're doing. 00:06:41.400 --> 00:06:42.700 None of it we do on our own. 00:06:42.733 --> 00:06:45.900 It's all relational and for me, that gives so much life because 00:06:45.933 --> 00:06:48.500 it's not something I'm doing in my own strength, but it's rather 00:06:48.533 --> 00:06:53.433 me understanding that we abide in him, that he is the source, 00:06:53.466 --> 00:06:56.067 that we're branches in the vine. 00:06:56.100 --> 00:06:59.133 And so, when I made that shift, Christianity went from being 00:06:59.167 --> 00:07:01.966 this list because I literally saw it as a list of rules and I 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:04.567 was like, "I can't even keep this list of rules," to 00:07:04.600 --> 00:07:06.633 understanding and God speaking to me when I was 17 at a 00:07:06.666 --> 00:07:07.966 church camp. 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:10.100 He said, "Abide in me and I'll abide in you," where it's a 00:07:10.133 --> 00:07:13.633 living relationship where he is the source that he is our source 00:07:13.666 --> 00:07:16.834 of strength and wisdom and grace, and if we abide in him, 00:07:16.867 --> 00:07:20.433 he will basically produce that fruit in us. 00:07:20.467 --> 00:07:23.700 And he will also prune us, which is not fun. 00:07:23.733 --> 00:07:25.100 Catherine: Painful but necessary. 00:07:25.133 --> 00:07:28.000 Rebecca: Painful but necessary because he cares about us. 00:07:28.033 --> 00:07:30.833 But yeah, it's a completely different thing and what a gift 00:07:30.867 --> 00:07:32.834 that your parents gave out to you. 00:07:32.867 --> 00:07:36.333 I know growing up with--in ministry can be hard, especially 00:07:36.366 --> 00:07:39.766 I think as a PK, you know, because for me, I wasn't in a 00:07:39.800 --> 00:07:42.967 church, so I wasn't in like I mean, I was in church, but I 00:07:43.000 --> 00:07:44.333 wasn't the pastor's kid. 00:07:44.366 --> 00:07:45.666 I was--like they were ministers. 00:07:45.700 --> 00:07:48.100 I think when you're a pastor's kid, it's even can be sometimes 00:07:48.134 --> 00:07:50.567 more intense because you're in this community. 00:07:50.600 --> 00:07:52.367 Did you feel that way? 00:07:52.400 --> 00:07:53.700 Catherine: Yes and no. 00:07:53.733 --> 00:07:56.067 So, I definitely agree with that. 00:07:56.100 --> 00:07:57.700 You know, people have opinions about everything. 00:07:57.733 --> 00:07:59.867 They have opinions on how you need to be raised. 00:07:59.900 --> 00:08:01.800 They have opinions on how you dress. 00:08:01.834 --> 00:08:04.334 They have opinions about practically everything. 00:08:04.367 --> 00:08:06.267 How you do what you're called to do. 00:08:06.300 --> 00:08:08.400 You know, maybe she should take a break from worship. 00:08:08.433 --> 00:08:13.100 All these thoughts and my parents were pretty firm in 00:08:13.133 --> 00:08:14.933 saying, "Catherine, you don't need to listen to any of 00:08:14.967 --> 00:08:16.300 those voices." 00:08:16.333 --> 00:08:17.633 Rebecca: Oh, your parents are awesome. 00:08:17.666 --> 00:08:20.333 Catherine: They are amazing and they just walked me through 00:08:20.367 --> 00:08:21.700 that process. 00:08:21.733 --> 00:08:23.934 They got stern a few times with some people and just said, "Hey, 00:08:23.967 --> 00:08:26.766 that's not your place to speak into our daughter's life," you 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:31.167 know, but yeah, it's like we need strong leaders like that 00:08:31.200 --> 00:08:34.700 who are willing to stand up and protect kids, you know, so yeah. 00:08:34.733 --> 00:08:37.367 There were definitely some times where I felt the pressure, but 00:08:37.400 --> 00:08:41.267 overarchingly again, good parents, to the best of their 00:08:41.300 --> 00:08:43.200 abilities, they're going to shield and create a 00:08:43.233 --> 00:08:44.534 safe environment. 00:08:44.567 --> 00:08:46.700 That's not always the case because the world can be crazy, 00:08:46.734 --> 00:08:49.667 but the Lord is so faithful with whatever I feel like families 00:08:49.700 --> 00:08:51.000 are called to family units. 00:08:51.033 --> 00:08:54.533 There's going to be a grace to walk that out together and we 00:08:54.566 --> 00:08:55.866 experienced that. 00:08:55.900 --> 00:08:57.233 Rebecca: I totally agree. 00:08:57.267 --> 00:08:59.267 I do think there is a calling for each family and I think 00:08:59.300 --> 00:09:02.033 there is a grace to operate in that calling. 00:09:02.067 --> 00:09:05.134 I think that's why it's pivotal to walk in your calling, and I 00:09:05.167 --> 00:09:07.233 know for you, there was a time where you were going to 00:09:07.267 --> 00:09:09.233 pursue business. 00:09:09.267 --> 00:09:10.667 Talk about that. 00:09:10.700 --> 00:09:13.267 Catherine: So, the joke is, I probably wouldn't usually say 00:09:13.300 --> 00:09:18.033 this in a podcast, but so I was gonna sell chicken to 00:09:18.066 --> 00:09:19.834 the masses. 00:09:19.867 --> 00:09:21.600 So, the whole point is Chick-fil-A, work at their 00:09:21.634 --> 00:09:23.500 corporate office because-- 00:09:23.533 --> 00:09:24.833 Rebecca: The Lord's chicken. 00:09:24.867 --> 00:09:26.167 Catherine: It's the Lord's chicken. 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:28.133 And in Georgia, basically you're not saved if you haven't worked 00:09:28.166 --> 00:09:29.467 at Chick-fil-A as a teenager. 00:09:29.500 --> 00:09:30.800 Rebecca: That is hilarious. 00:09:30.834 --> 00:09:32.500 Catherine: So, that's was my business thing and if you went 00:09:32.534 --> 00:09:34.467 into the business world and they ask you what you're called to 00:09:34.500 --> 00:09:37.000 do, to say, "Hey, I feel called to sing," they're like, "Oh, 00:09:37.033 --> 00:09:38.700 that's cute," you know, what does that even mean? 00:09:38.733 --> 00:09:40.100 There was no context for that. 00:09:40.133 --> 00:09:42.233 So, I was going to do business. 00:09:42.266 --> 00:09:44.667 Again, it's a great company to work for and work at their 00:09:44.700 --> 00:09:46.134 corporate office. 00:09:46.167 --> 00:09:49.134 And the Lord really just--and the reason I wanted to do that 00:09:49.167 --> 00:09:52.000 is I didn't really want to do ministry because I've seen all 00:09:52.034 --> 00:09:55.500 the different battles my parents had faced and just the things 00:09:55.534 --> 00:10:00.000 that people say and do and they just loved people so well, but 00:10:00.033 --> 00:10:01.333 it was hard. 00:10:01.366 --> 00:10:02.700 It was hard. 00:10:02.733 --> 00:10:04.033 Rebecca: It's a hard calling. 00:10:04.066 --> 00:10:05.666 Catherine: Yes, it really is and there's a grace for it, but 00:10:05.700 --> 00:10:07.233 it's intense. 00:10:07.266 --> 00:10:09.167 And Paul the Apostle, we can see in his life how hard it was. 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:11.400 Peter, you know, the apostle, there's just--it was--it's 00:10:11.433 --> 00:10:14.466 intense sometimes to work in church settings, but 00:10:14.500 --> 00:10:15.800 very rewarding. 00:10:15.833 --> 00:10:19.433 So, I just was going to do the business route and I just told 00:10:19.467 --> 00:10:22.134 the Lord, "If you want me to do ministry, you're just going to 00:10:22.167 --> 00:10:24.800 have to make it very clear because obviously I want to 00:10:24.833 --> 00:10:28.066 follow you with whatever I do, but you're just gonna have to 00:10:28.100 --> 00:10:29.667 make this very clear," and he did. 00:10:29.700 --> 00:10:34.167 And so, I had a moment where, again, I would think it was my 00:10:34.200 --> 00:10:38.366 third year in college, organizational leadership. 00:10:38.400 --> 00:10:43.033 And there was an event that basically happened in Florida 00:10:43.067 --> 00:10:47.766 and it ended up blowing up and like 10,000 people came and God 00:10:47.800 --> 00:10:49.400 TV hosted it. 00:10:49.433 --> 00:10:52.800 And so, I ended up leading worship there at that event and 00:10:52.833 --> 00:10:57.000 it ended up launching me into full-time ministry overnight. 00:10:57.033 --> 00:11:00.334 And so, I went from background vocals, but they did extended 00:11:00.367 --> 00:11:03.233 meetings and so that ended up--they just needed a 00:11:03.267 --> 00:11:04.600 worship leader. 00:11:04.633 --> 00:11:06.400 I probably was not even--I was probably like the fifth pick, 00:11:06.433 --> 00:11:07.733 you know. 00:11:07.767 --> 00:11:09.100 They were just-- 00:11:09.134 --> 00:11:10.733 Rebecca: But it was like that extended worship and so they use 00:11:10.766 --> 00:11:12.067 people to step in. 00:11:12.100 --> 00:11:13.534 Catherine: So, they're like we'll throw Catherine out there 00:11:13.567 --> 00:11:15.000 and it ended up working out. 00:11:15.034 --> 00:11:16.900 Rebecca: How did you feel in that moment? 00:11:16.933 --> 00:11:19.000 Catherine: You know, okay, this is the thing about leading 00:11:19.034 --> 00:11:21.634 worship in front of a lot of people because before that, it 00:11:21.667 --> 00:11:25.367 had been a very small crowd and I had no open doors except the, 00:11:25.400 --> 00:11:27.067 you know, the local church. 00:11:27.100 --> 00:11:30.300 But worship leading, if you can lead worship in front of 50 00:11:30.333 --> 00:11:33.466 people, you can lead worship in front of 5000 people. 00:11:33.500 --> 00:11:35.000 It's the same thing. 00:11:35.033 --> 00:11:38.800 When you learn to follow the flow of the spirit, it's the 00:11:38.833 --> 00:11:42.167 same because when you learn to hear his voice for 50 people, 00:11:42.200 --> 00:11:44.634 you can hear his voice for 5000 people. 00:11:44.667 --> 00:11:47.000 It's the same voice that talks to you, you know, and you just 00:11:47.034 --> 00:11:48.333 get to know him. 00:11:48.367 --> 00:11:52.034 And he can lead and guide and direct, but it was definitely, I 00:11:52.067 --> 00:11:54.600 feel, like a God thing, which is we're all waiting for that 00:11:54.633 --> 00:11:57.600 moment of calling and just saying, "Okay, Lord, I trust 00:11:57.633 --> 00:11:59.634 you," and when we do, it's amazing how he can open 00:11:59.667 --> 00:12:00.967 the doors. 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:02.600 Rebecca: And so, from that moment it was kind of like your 00:12:02.634 --> 00:12:05.534 open door that led to other open doors. 00:12:05.567 --> 00:12:06.867 Catherine: Yes, definitely. 00:12:06.900 --> 00:12:08.233 Rebecca: And so, you started--did you start doing 00:12:08.267 --> 00:12:09.567 worship leading? 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:12.633 Did you do teaching as well or how did that come about? 00:12:12.666 --> 00:12:14.867 Catherine: Teaching was something that I was very 00:12:14.900 --> 00:12:18.900 nervous about, and it's just a different, different 00:12:18.933 --> 00:12:20.233 world and-- 00:12:20.266 --> 00:12:21.600 Rebecca: They're completely different. 00:12:21.634 --> 00:12:22.933 Catherine: They are. 00:12:22.966 --> 00:12:24.300 Rebecca: And a lot of times worship leaders don't always 00:12:24.334 --> 00:12:25.634 teach, you know. 00:12:25.667 --> 00:12:28.000 Some do, but not everyone because they are very different. 00:12:28.033 --> 00:12:30.533 Catherine: Yes, and I always would look at speakers or 00:12:30.567 --> 00:12:31.867 even podcasters. 00:12:31.900 --> 00:12:33.233 I'm amazed. 00:12:33.266 --> 00:12:35.500 Like you guys are just so brilliant with your speech and 00:12:35.533 --> 00:12:36.833 the questions you ask. 00:12:36.866 --> 00:12:38.333 Rebecca: I think it's funny because I was hearing you teach 00:12:38.366 --> 00:12:40.233 and I was like, "Man, she is just so good," and that's like a 00:12:40.266 --> 00:12:43.067 gifting thing, you know, and you have to steward it, but not 00:12:43.100 --> 00:12:44.433 everyone has that. 00:12:44.467 --> 00:12:45.767 So, it's funny because I was thinking that about you. 00:12:45.800 --> 00:12:47.133 Catherine: Well I feel that about you. 00:12:47.166 --> 00:12:48.467 Look at us supporting each other. 00:12:48.500 --> 00:12:49.833 Rebecca: Women supporting women. 00:12:49.867 --> 00:12:51.834 Catherine: Yeah, but it was really kind of scary for me to 00:12:51.867 --> 00:12:55.600 step out into that because it was so new and I think worship 00:12:55.633 --> 00:12:59.300 leaders sometimes think like pastors, I think, think, "I only 00:12:59.333 --> 00:13:02.400 have 15, 20 minutes to talk, you know, how am I going to fit 00:13:02.434 --> 00:13:03.734 everything in?" 00:13:03.767 --> 00:13:05.367 Worship leaders think, "How am I going to fill up something for 00:13:05.400 --> 00:13:06.700 15 minutes?" 00:13:06.734 --> 00:13:08.334 Rebecca: Yeah, that's a long time. 00:13:08.367 --> 00:13:10.367 Catherine: Yeah, so it was probably a few years into it and 00:13:10.400 --> 00:13:13.800 it was the typical, "Hey, teach on worship," and then somewhere 00:13:13.833 --> 00:13:16.833 along the way, I, with that, I just kind of started getting a 00:13:16.866 --> 00:13:20.667 heart for the church and a heart to deal with specific 00:13:20.700 --> 00:13:22.067 topics, etc. 00:13:22.100 --> 00:13:24.566 and I just started refining those messages behind the scenes 00:13:24.600 --> 00:13:26.867 and wrestling with those messages behind the scenes with 00:13:26.900 --> 00:13:28.300 the Lord and the word. 00:13:28.333 --> 00:13:31.367 And then I would just take different opportunities that 00:13:31.400 --> 00:13:32.700 came my way. 00:13:32.733 --> 00:13:34.300 Rebecca: You know what though, like some of my favorite 00:13:34.333 --> 00:13:36.033 teachers are worship leaders. 00:13:36.066 --> 00:13:39.133 Like I took a class in Bible school that was by a worship 00:13:39.166 --> 00:13:42.866 leader and it was actually "What Is Worship," and it changed 00:13:42.900 --> 00:13:44.200 my life. 00:13:44.233 --> 00:13:46.000 And I just think worship leaders can have such a heart and a 00:13:46.033 --> 00:13:49.966 perspective that comes across in the teaching, even the Bible 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:52.166 school I went to with Jack Hayford, he helped start a 00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:54.767 worship movement within the church, so there is something 00:13:54.800 --> 00:13:57.834 special there when those things combine. 00:13:57.867 --> 00:13:59.400 So, I just love that. 00:13:59.434 --> 00:14:01.967 But yeah, that must have been scary kind of transitioning. 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:05.466 So, you were doing worship leading and now you do both, and 00:14:05.500 --> 00:14:06.867 now you pastor? 00:14:06.900 --> 00:14:09.566 Catherine: Yes. Rebecca: Okay, talk about that. 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:11.300 Catherine: So, I--if you would have told me that we were going 00:14:11.333 --> 00:14:14.067 to be pastoring my dad's church, I would have said, "I don't see 00:14:14.100 --> 00:14:15.433 that in the cards. 00:14:15.467 --> 00:14:16.800 I don't think that's gonna happen." 00:14:16.834 --> 00:14:18.833 Rebecca: So, you never, growing up, you never were like, "One 00:14:18.866 --> 00:14:20.167 day maybe--" 00:14:20.200 --> 00:14:21.533 Catherine: I never even thought about it. 00:14:21.566 --> 00:14:22.867 I don't know why. 00:14:22.900 --> 00:14:25.400 And then I was--I had moved away to Hamilton, Alabama and we live 00:14:25.434 --> 00:14:30.133 in Georgia now and we pastor church Coweta Community Church 00:14:30.167 --> 00:14:33.767 in Noonan, Georgia and in Alabama. 00:14:33.800 --> 00:14:35.633 I thought I was just going to be there for a long time. 00:14:35.666 --> 00:14:37.300 It's Karen Wheaton, the Ramp. 00:14:37.333 --> 00:14:39.733 They're our second family, home away from home. 00:14:39.767 --> 00:14:44.433 We still do basically all of their events and conferences. 00:14:44.467 --> 00:14:48.067 But somewhere along the way, my husband and I got married and 00:14:48.100 --> 00:14:52.100 our hearts just kind of started to look to home again. 00:14:52.133 --> 00:14:56.233 And instead of really dreaming about travel ministry as much, I 00:14:56.266 --> 00:14:59.567 started falling asleep thinking about my dad's church and I 00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:00.967 didn't even know why. 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:02.533 It was just kind of like, "I wonder what they're doing?" 00:15:02.566 --> 00:15:06.000 And then, really there's a transition happening just 00:15:06.033 --> 00:15:09.033 because of the age that we're in and the boomers are starting to 00:15:09.067 --> 00:15:11.067 get older and starting to retire. 00:15:11.100 --> 00:15:16.266 So, really the church is in a transition phase and a lot of 00:15:16.300 --> 00:15:17.634 churches are. 00:15:17.667 --> 00:15:19.367 And so, I was seeing different churches and they were talking 00:15:19.400 --> 00:15:22.033 through their transition plans and I was even seeing some of 00:15:22.066 --> 00:15:24.000 the tension that comes with it. 00:15:24.033 --> 00:15:27.467 Rebecca: Transition is hard and a lot of times it's not handled 00:15:27.500 --> 00:15:28.834 very well. 00:15:28.867 --> 00:15:30.167 Catherine: It's true. 00:15:30.200 --> 00:15:32.034 Rebecca: And so, to see a good transition I think is so good 00:15:32.067 --> 00:15:34.300 for people to witness because there is a way that you 00:15:34.333 --> 00:15:37.567 can--because ministry, it's so interesting like when I first 00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:40.500 got called, like I just thought about like my calling. 00:15:40.534 --> 00:15:43.134 Now I think about legacy and you're probably thinking that 00:15:43.167 --> 00:15:45.700 too because here you're picking up the baton from your parents, 00:15:45.733 --> 00:15:48.300 and they're probably thinking about your own kids, your son. 00:15:48.333 --> 00:15:51.566 And so, yeah, it's totally different, but transition 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:52.933 is hard. 00:15:52.966 --> 00:15:54.266 Catherine: It is. 00:15:54.300 --> 00:15:55.633 And I mean, nobody really likes transition. 00:15:55.667 --> 00:15:56.967 It can be scary. 00:15:57.000 --> 00:15:59.400 I say that nobody--I feel like, and Jeremiah Johnson says this, 00:15:59.433 --> 00:16:02.600 there's pioneers and then there's settlers. 00:16:02.633 --> 00:16:03.967 Rebecca: That's true. 00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:05.300 Catherine: And we need both, you know. 00:16:05.333 --> 00:16:07.700 The settlers calm down the pioneers where they need to be 00:16:07.733 --> 00:16:09.033 calmed down. 00:16:09.067 --> 00:16:12.400 The pioneers grab the settlers and say, "Let's keep going," 00:16:12.433 --> 00:16:13.767 you know. 00:16:13.800 --> 00:16:15.100 Rebecca: The pioneers are the trailblazers and there are 00:16:15.134 --> 00:16:19.100 people who like there's a guy who came through here and that's 00:16:19.133 --> 00:16:21.833 like--that's something that that's all they do and they 00:16:21.866 --> 00:16:24.800 blaze trails and they start things and then they hand it off 00:16:24.833 --> 00:16:27.767 and then like these amazing churches and ministries, you 00:16:27.800 --> 00:16:30.767 know, and then some people they steward and they stay there and 00:16:30.800 --> 00:16:33.167 they settle like the settlers. 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:34.500 That's it. 00:16:34.534 --> 00:16:36.866 Catherine: And so, I think, you know, we didn't expect that to 00:16:36.900 --> 00:16:40.633 be our story and then all of a sudden, I just couldn't stop 00:16:40.666 --> 00:16:41.967 thinking about it. 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:43.333 My husband was thinking about it, so there's that 00:16:43.367 --> 00:16:45.066 alignment, 100%. 00:16:45.100 --> 00:16:47.300 And we said, "Well, we need to talk to somebody about this. 00:16:47.333 --> 00:16:51.300 We need some older person's advice, wisdom." 00:16:51.333 --> 00:16:54.266 And so, we went over to one of the elder's houses. 00:16:54.300 --> 00:16:56.267 We hadn't even told my parents yet because I wanted--we wanted 00:16:56.300 --> 00:16:58.700 to get our ducks in a row first, you know, to make sure we'd 00:16:58.734 --> 00:17:00.267 heard from the Lord. 00:17:00.300 --> 00:17:03.433 And we told this guy, Dr. Randy. 00:17:03.466 --> 00:17:06.900 I said, "Hey, I think we're called to take my dad's church." 00:17:06.933 --> 00:17:11.133 And he said, "You know, I told my wife Kimmy, I told her that 00:17:11.166 --> 00:17:13.133 you guys were coming over and I felt like you were going to tell 00:17:13.166 --> 00:17:14.767 us that tonight." 00:17:14.800 --> 00:17:19.067 And we need the older generation and their wisdom and their 00:17:19.100 --> 00:17:20.900 ability to hear from the Lord. 00:17:20.933 --> 00:17:23.466 And so, that really was just like a, you know, a 00:17:23.500 --> 00:17:26.433 solidification for us that we're hearing from God and going in 00:17:26.467 --> 00:17:27.767 the right direction. 00:17:27.800 --> 00:17:31.267 And so, we told my dad and, you know, submitted it to him and he 00:17:31.300 --> 00:17:34.167 prayed about it and he felt like it was--and he brought it before 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:35.533 the elders. 00:17:35.567 --> 00:17:37.267 We brought it and presented it to the elders of the church and 00:17:37.300 --> 00:17:39.100 they unanimously agreed. 00:17:39.133 --> 00:17:41.800 Rebecca: That's huge. Catherine: Which is amazing. 00:17:41.833 --> 00:17:44.933 And yeah, so it's just been, I mean now I say that that was a 00:17:44.966 --> 00:17:47.866 bit of like the rainbow glass version of it. 00:17:47.900 --> 00:17:51.500 It still was hard, you know, because people love my dad and 00:17:51.533 --> 00:17:53.067 we're not my dad, you know? 00:17:53.100 --> 00:17:54.400 Rebecca: No you're not. 00:17:54.433 --> 00:17:57.033 Catherine: And it talks about, you know, you can't put new wine 00:17:57.067 --> 00:17:59.534 skin in an old wine skin. 00:17:59.567 --> 00:18:04.666 And so, you can't put new wine in an old wine skin and I think, 00:18:04.700 --> 00:18:07.033 not to go there, but a lot of churches, that's where we're at 00:18:07.066 --> 00:18:10.600 right now is God is pouring out something new and there's a 00:18:10.634 --> 00:18:14.466 place for the older generation, but there is a passing of the 00:18:14.500 --> 00:18:17.567 baton, and it's beautiful, but it's also hard and we're all 00:18:17.600 --> 00:18:19.233 learning to do it together. 00:18:19.267 --> 00:18:20.567 Rebecca: That's so funny. 00:18:20.600 --> 00:18:24.200 I was just talking to someone about this very thing, how 00:18:24.233 --> 00:18:27.734 people can get so caught up with the way God has moved or the way 00:18:27.767 --> 00:18:31.400 they did things and they can get stuck if they don't allow 00:18:31.433 --> 00:18:34.367 themselves to keep continuing to follow where the spirit is 00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:37.000 leading us in that new direction. 00:18:37.033 --> 00:18:38.867 That we can get stuck in tradition. 00:18:38.900 --> 00:18:42.300 And we can't, even though we might not understand a new 00:18:42.333 --> 00:18:45.567 movement or a new direction, we have to trust God and follow him 00:18:45.600 --> 00:18:49.400 and not get so familiar with our ways of doing things or our 00:18:49.433 --> 00:18:52.133 systems because we're not married to a system, we're 00:18:52.167 --> 00:18:54.633 married to Jesus and we're following him. 00:18:54.667 --> 00:18:57.200 You know, but I think we just get comfortable with the way 00:18:57.233 --> 00:19:01.767 things are, but I mean, God is on the move and he's expanding 00:19:01.800 --> 00:19:04.700 the kingdom, and we got to keep walking in step with him and not 00:19:04.733 --> 00:19:08.733 be so tied to the way things are because like you said, you know, 00:19:08.766 --> 00:19:11.767 you can't put new wine in an old wine skin. 00:19:11.800 --> 00:19:14.567 And it's interesting because I--when I was interviewing this 00:19:14.600 --> 00:19:17.734 guy named Dale Mast, he was--he does a book on the life of King 00:19:17.767 --> 00:19:20.767 David, and he talks about just that crazy journey that David 00:19:20.800 --> 00:19:22.700 had to go through to get king. 00:19:22.733 --> 00:19:26.400 But then once he became king, how it took him seven years to 00:19:26.434 --> 00:19:30.400 win over the tribe of Benjamin, the house of Saul, because of 00:19:30.433 --> 00:19:31.733 what happened with Saul. 00:19:31.767 --> 00:19:36.500 But yet, David led in kindness, and he was kind to them. 00:19:36.533 --> 00:19:39.900 And in time, they fell in line with him and supported him 00:19:39.934 --> 00:19:41.233 as king. 00:19:41.267 --> 00:19:42.600 And so, sometimes he's like, even when you're in that 00:19:42.633 --> 00:19:45.200 position, there are going to be people who maybe resist you and 00:19:45.234 --> 00:19:48.600 you have to choose to lead in kindness. 00:19:48.633 --> 00:19:51.600 And, you know, in time when people over because some people 00:19:51.633 --> 00:19:54.633 they don't want things to change, because change is hard 00:19:54.666 --> 00:19:55.967 for people. 00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:57.834 Catherine: I think that's a great word and it's funny I was 00:19:57.867 --> 00:19:59.700 telling my husband because I'm a justice girl. 00:19:59.734 --> 00:20:02.067 Like I'm a right, wrong, black and white. 00:20:02.100 --> 00:20:05.467 And I want to, you know, stand up for the people who, you know, 00:20:05.500 --> 00:20:07.634 aren't being treated well, etc. 00:20:07.667 --> 00:20:09.933 And one of the biggest things when we stepped into the 00:20:09.966 --> 00:20:12.800 pastoral position was I feel like the Lord put a muzzle on my 00:20:12.833 --> 00:20:15.867 mouth in a good way, and he just said, "You can't talk 00:20:15.900 --> 00:20:17.200 like that." 00:20:17.234 --> 00:20:19.300 And it wasn't like I was trying to be unkind, but I just, you 00:20:19.333 --> 00:20:20.667 know, I wanted justice. 00:20:20.700 --> 00:20:25.266 I want things to be set to right and the pastoral heart is being 00:20:25.300 --> 00:20:26.633 kind to people-- 00:20:26.667 --> 00:20:29.333 Rebecca: It's the shepherd. Catherine: It really is. 00:20:29.366 --> 00:20:31.400 It's gently guiding them and-- 00:20:31.433 --> 00:20:34.966 Rebecca: Gently with the staff, not beating them with the stuff. 00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:37.834 Catherine: And I think that's really probably a lesson for all 00:20:37.867 --> 00:20:40.734 of us because, you know, we're all growing, having grace with 00:20:40.767 --> 00:20:42.800 each other, you know. 00:20:42.833 --> 00:20:46.700 What kind of grace do I want someone to have with me and 00:20:46.733 --> 00:20:48.034 my process? 00:20:48.067 --> 00:20:49.800 And then extending that same grace and it's really the 00:20:49.833 --> 00:20:51.166 golden rule. 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:54.367 I mean, you know, we did a--I did a class on ethics in college 00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:58.000 and it all boiled down to treat others how you want to 00:20:58.033 --> 00:20:59.334 be treated. 00:20:59.367 --> 00:21:01.833 It's the golden standard, you know, but that's the treating 00:21:01.867 --> 00:21:04.666 people with kindness is such a big deal in today's culture. 00:21:04.700 --> 00:21:08.066 It's almost like kindness in some instances has 00:21:08.100 --> 00:21:09.400 been forgotten. 00:21:09.434 --> 00:21:12.167 And the Lord's bringing that back in many ways. 00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:13.766 Rebecca: Yeah, I totally agree. 00:21:13.800 --> 00:21:16.800 And you know, I'm so thankful like even for me because I think 00:21:16.833 --> 00:21:20.800 when you are younger, you have all this passion and like you 00:21:20.834 --> 00:21:23.867 have this energy which is so great and that was actually--I 00:21:23.900 --> 00:21:27.000 was--we were talking to Joseph Z about that where it's like the 00:21:27.034 --> 00:21:30.266 older generation has wisdom and they need the strength of the 00:21:30.300 --> 00:21:31.634 younger generation. 00:21:31.667 --> 00:21:34.566 And so many times there's that disconnect, but we really need 00:21:34.600 --> 00:21:37.700 each other, but the younger generation needs the guidance, 00:21:37.733 --> 00:21:39.034 you know. 00:21:39.067 --> 00:21:40.400 And so, they work together. 00:21:40.433 --> 00:21:44.066 And so, with me, I feel like God teaching me like, you know, you 00:21:44.100 --> 00:21:48.400 want things to be set right and you have good intentions, you 00:21:48.433 --> 00:21:51.400 know, but if you have to do things God's way and in his 00:21:51.433 --> 00:21:54.733 timing, and you have to use wisdom and you have to, you 00:21:54.766 --> 00:21:57.566 know, when you are being put under someone in leadership, you 00:21:57.600 --> 00:21:59.267 have to serve that vision. 00:21:59.300 --> 00:22:02.034 And I think so many people have their vision and they know what 00:22:02.067 --> 00:22:04.633 God's called them to do and they want to live out their vision, 00:22:04.667 --> 00:22:07.433 but I think God wants to test first, can you serve another 00:22:07.467 --> 00:22:08.766 man's vision? 00:22:08.800 --> 00:22:12.367 Catherine: That's, I mean, that all right there is such a big 00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:16.600 word and I was talking to somebody recently because as you 00:22:16.634 --> 00:22:18.700 know, when you're called and you're young and you're called 00:22:18.734 --> 00:22:20.066 to something-- 00:22:20.100 --> 00:22:21.400 Rebecca: You have all this passion. 00:22:21.433 --> 00:22:22.767 Catherine: You have the passion and it's unbridled. 00:22:22.800 --> 00:22:24.100 Rebecca: Not as much wisdom. 00:22:24.133 --> 00:22:26.167 Catherine: You don't know how to handle it, and I think the Lord 00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:28.967 plans it like that where it's like you need that passion to 00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:32.700 push you forward and into your calling, but there's like this 00:22:32.733 --> 00:22:35.900 gap where it happened with David in the Bible where he's anointed 00:22:35.934 --> 00:22:38.633 king and then he goes back to the field. 00:22:38.667 --> 00:22:41.467 There's this timing where it's like this is what I'm called to 00:22:41.500 --> 00:22:44.967 and it's like we're so passionate about what we're 00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:48.500 called to, but there's this waiting season where God is 00:22:48.533 --> 00:22:49.967 training us. 00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:53.600 And in that season, we are usually called to serve somebody 00:22:53.634 --> 00:22:54.967 else's vision. 00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:57.067 And the question is, can we serve with the right heart? 00:22:57.100 --> 00:22:58.400 Can we walk in humility? 00:22:58.433 --> 00:23:02.200 And so much of our character is being built in that time of 00:23:02.233 --> 00:23:03.900 we've been called. 00:23:03.934 --> 00:23:06.833 Now here's the gap, and now you're eventually going to be 00:23:06.867 --> 00:23:09.566 able to step into what you're called to do, but it's like 00:23:09.600 --> 00:23:12.267 there's so much--it's like a floodgate that, you know, that 00:23:12.300 --> 00:23:15.666 we're trying to kind of hold back, but it's God's process is 00:23:15.700 --> 00:23:18.700 usually we get a word and then it's going to be a season of 00:23:18.734 --> 00:23:22.400 walking it out until the fulfilled promise comes to pass. 00:23:22.433 --> 00:23:25.967 Rebecca: It's so true because God in his mercy wants to get 00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:29.667 our hearts in the right place before we walk into ministry. 00:23:29.700 --> 00:23:32.367 And I think for some people, they have that vision and 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:34.966 they're following the Lord and then they're in this season of 00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:38.233 pruning and testing and they're thinking, "God, what is this? 00:23:38.267 --> 00:23:41.033 This is not what I thought I signed up for," but we have to 00:23:41.066 --> 00:23:43.734 trust him that he's bringing us through that process, and we 00:23:43.767 --> 00:23:46.267 have to trust him, you know. 00:23:46.300 --> 00:23:48.334 Can, you know, why are you doing ministry? 00:23:48.367 --> 00:23:51.034 Are you doing this for you? Are you doing this for me? 00:23:51.067 --> 00:23:52.400 You know. 00:23:52.434 --> 00:23:54.133 Do what people think about you, does that really matter? 00:23:54.167 --> 00:23:56.400 You know, that has to be broken off because I'm gonna call you 00:23:56.434 --> 00:23:58.667 to do things that people are gonna judge you for it, 00:23:58.700 --> 00:24:00.034 you know. 00:24:00.067 --> 00:24:02.034 And so, there's so much process that God brings us through, but 00:24:02.067 --> 00:24:04.834 in his mercy so that when we step into our calling, it 00:24:04.867 --> 00:24:07.933 doesn't overtake us or doesn't lead us, you know. 00:24:07.967 --> 00:24:10.767 That he is the one, he is the prize basically. 00:24:10.800 --> 00:24:13.867 And we don't let ministry become the prize. 00:24:13.900 --> 00:24:16.900 And so, I think that pruning is so important and I think you 00:24:16.933 --> 00:24:19.600 have all that passion, but you need wisdom and I think about 00:24:19.634 --> 00:24:23.600 the people in my life, thank God, who spoke wisdom to me in 00:24:23.633 --> 00:24:28.300 intense passionate moments and had wisdom and I listened and it 00:24:28.333 --> 00:24:30.966 was really humbling for me because I realized that you can 00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:33.833 be passionate and you can have good intentions, but if you are 00:24:33.867 --> 00:24:36.733 not--if you need to clearly hear from the Lord and you need to 00:24:36.767 --> 00:24:39.633 have wisdom because if not, those things, passion and good 00:24:39.667 --> 00:24:42.134 intentions, can take you in the completely wrong direction and 00:24:42.167 --> 00:24:44.900 you could blow up your life. 00:24:44.933 --> 00:24:48.934 And I think people--I think the closer you are to stepping into 00:24:48.967 --> 00:24:52.866 your destiny, I think the harder and more tempting it is to try 00:24:52.900 --> 00:24:55.133 to make it happen in your own strength. 00:24:55.167 --> 00:24:57.333 And I think that's where so many people get caught. 00:24:57.366 --> 00:24:59.500 Catherine: Well you just said two very important things. 00:24:59.533 --> 00:25:03.700 I feel like you said um humble, humility and you said 00:25:03.734 --> 00:25:05.733 you listened. 00:25:05.766 --> 00:25:09.133 And those are two things that I think sometimes we don't realize 00:25:09.167 --> 00:25:11.167 really do go hand in hand. 00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:13.067 We come in, we have these great ideas. 00:25:13.100 --> 00:25:15.400 I was talking to somebody recently, we were talking about 00:25:15.434 --> 00:25:18.466 all our supposed great ideas in our twenties, and some of them 00:25:18.500 --> 00:25:22.867 were good ideas, but she said, "Man, Catherine, if those older 00:25:22.900 --> 00:25:27.500 leaders that had told us no had said yes to us in that season," 00:25:27.534 --> 00:25:30.300 she said, "we would have wrecked everything." 00:25:30.333 --> 00:25:33.100 And you don't really realize that until you get a little bit 00:25:33.133 --> 00:25:36.533 older, and you think, "Oh, they were actually preserving us and 00:25:36.567 --> 00:25:37.900 they were preserving other people." 00:25:37.933 --> 00:25:43.800 And I think what you just said is you had the humility enough 00:25:43.833 --> 00:25:45.267 to listen. 00:25:45.300 --> 00:25:47.933 And that is a little bit of what I think there's been a 00:25:47.966 --> 00:25:52.067 disconnect in our age group and younger is we think we know 00:25:52.100 --> 00:25:55.066 best, which everyone at that age thinks they know best. 00:25:55.100 --> 00:25:57.700 I mean, we're still probably--I still have to fight that, you 00:25:57.733 --> 00:26:01.166 know, I think I know best in different scenarios, but you 00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:05.700 made the decision to honor and serve a vision and to submit to 00:26:05.733 --> 00:26:08.500 that and you listened to wisdom. 00:26:08.533 --> 00:26:10.933 And that's where I'm just like, you know, there's some 00:26:10.966 --> 00:26:14.867 non-negotiables in my husband's and I--in our life that, you 00:26:14.900 --> 00:26:17.733 know, if my dad, who's kind of our apostolic covering, if he 00:26:17.766 --> 00:26:22.266 says, you know, no to something, we listen to that and it's a 00:26:22.300 --> 00:26:23.700 pretty hard no. 00:26:23.733 --> 00:26:28.533 You know, not everybody has that place in our lives, but the 00:26:28.567 --> 00:26:31.200 wisdom of the older generation, what you said, is such a huge 00:26:31.233 --> 00:26:35.400 deal, and I feel like if we could get on the same page where 00:26:35.434 --> 00:26:39.034 the older generation respects the passion of the young and 00:26:39.067 --> 00:26:42.366 gives them a voice and we listen, again like you said, to 00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:44.066 the wisdom of the older generation, I feel like the 00:26:44.100 --> 00:26:46.400 church could be unstoppable in many ways. 00:26:46.433 --> 00:26:47.900 Rebecca: Oh, I completely agree. 00:26:47.933 --> 00:26:51.300 I, you know, I think the enemy, he's just trying to stir up 00:26:51.333 --> 00:26:54.600 division because if we're divided, that we're the 00:26:54.634 --> 00:26:55.933 least effective. 00:26:55.966 --> 00:26:59.200 We are one body, so imagine separating from itself, you 00:26:59.233 --> 00:27:00.867 can't even function properly. 00:27:00.900 --> 00:27:03.100 You know, in the Bible says in Ephesians, it's like keep the 00:27:03.133 --> 00:27:07.567 bond of peace, of unity within the body and that's the thing 00:27:07.600 --> 00:27:10.700 that's being attacked and I think so many--I think the enemy 00:27:10.733 --> 00:27:13.467 loves to use Christians who have real hurt. 00:27:13.500 --> 00:27:17.700 I think he hops into that wounding and people lash out in 00:27:17.733 --> 00:27:20.833 their hurts and I don't even think--I think most people have 00:27:20.867 --> 00:27:22.200 good intentions. 00:27:22.234 --> 00:27:24.467 I think a lot of people lack biblical teaching, they 00:27:24.500 --> 00:27:25.900 lack wisdom. 00:27:25.934 --> 00:27:29.700 They have good intentions, and he's misappropriating that, and 00:27:29.733 --> 00:27:32.534 I hate to see that because I'm like, "It's not that your 00:27:32.567 --> 00:27:35.134 intentions are good," and I think about like Moses in 00:27:35.167 --> 00:27:36.500 the Bible. 00:27:36.534 --> 00:27:39.867 Like his intentions were good when he killed the Egyptian, but 00:27:39.900 --> 00:27:41.366 it wasn't the right way to handle it. 00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:43.600 And he'd have to go out to the desert for 40 years, and God 00:27:43.634 --> 00:27:48.867 would restore him back and he would lead him to bring the 00:27:48.900 --> 00:27:50.800 Jewish people out of slavery in Egypt. 00:27:50.833 --> 00:27:52.367 So, he had that passion. 00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:53.700 It was just misappropriate. 00:27:53.734 --> 00:27:57.467 I think about Peter, he loved Jesus, but he cut off the air of 00:27:57.500 --> 00:28:00.934 the guy, misappropriated path and Jesus is like, "Oh, Peter, 00:28:00.967 --> 00:28:02.367 you live by the sword, you died by the sword. 00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:04.434 This isn't the way to handle it," you know. 00:28:04.467 --> 00:28:07.000 And you have an amazing, I mean, you should share some of that on 00:28:07.034 --> 00:28:11.000 Peter because that was like mind blowing. 00:28:11.033 --> 00:28:14.834 Catherine: I agree with you on this thought of misplaced 00:28:14.867 --> 00:28:17.966 justice or even mis--I call it misplaced compassion too because 00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:22.000 it's somebody who's responding out of a place of trauma and 00:28:22.033 --> 00:28:24.967 hurt, and so they want other people to not have to deal with 00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:28.533 that, or they want to stand up for other people, but we have to 00:28:28.566 --> 00:28:31.934 get back to exactly what you said, back to how the Bible 00:28:31.967 --> 00:28:34.567 calls us to handle specific issues. 00:28:34.600 --> 00:28:39.067 And so, instead of going from a cultural lens and what is 00:28:39.100 --> 00:28:43.066 culturally appropriate, we have to say, "What does the Bible 00:28:43.100 --> 00:28:47.066 say, my conduct, our conduct should be concerning the 00:28:47.100 --> 00:28:50.233 situation," and then you really hit it that people don't know 00:28:50.266 --> 00:28:52.234 the Bible anymore. 00:28:52.267 --> 00:28:55.800 And it's interesting to me because you don't know what you 00:28:55.833 --> 00:28:57.133 don't know. 00:28:57.166 --> 00:29:02.934 And so, if you're getting the majority of your Bible and 00:29:02.967 --> 00:29:06.400 theology from social media from these little squares, we always 00:29:06.433 --> 00:29:08.967 say that's part of the story, that's not the full story. 00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:12.300 There's no way you're going to know the full story. 00:29:12.333 --> 00:29:15.933 And I think that's where we're at right now is even though we 00:29:15.966 --> 00:29:19.433 have a ton of Bibles circulating in the world, we're living in a 00:29:19.466 --> 00:29:21.766 very biblically illiterate time. 00:29:21.800 --> 00:29:23.100 Rebecca: We are. 00:29:23.134 --> 00:29:24.467 Catherine: But the thing that's crazy is people don't realize 00:29:24.500 --> 00:29:26.267 that because they own a Bible but they haven't been reading 00:29:26.300 --> 00:29:27.633 the Bible. 00:29:27.666 --> 00:29:29.566 Rebecca: I think people are really going off of how they 00:29:29.600 --> 00:29:35.000 feel, and I think people feel justified in being hateful. 00:29:35.033 --> 00:29:37.433 But there's no biblical justification for it. 00:29:37.467 --> 00:29:40.600 Just because you think, which I mean you don't even know 00:29:40.634 --> 00:29:42.366 sometimes if someone's actually done wrong, you're just 00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:43.700 judging them. 00:29:43.733 --> 00:29:48.333 But even if someone does wrong, that isn't justifying you in 00:29:48.366 --> 00:29:50.600 being wrong yourself and being hateful. 00:29:50.634 --> 00:29:52.534 Catherine: Well, and that's the thing that's crazy is a lot of 00:29:52.567 --> 00:29:56.033 times when it comes to offense, if somebody did wrong to you or 00:29:56.066 --> 00:29:59.866 it was a perceived wrong, we still handle it the same way and 00:29:59.900 --> 00:30:02.533 that's what's biblically we're called to handle it the same 00:30:02.567 --> 00:30:04.667 way, you know, and it talks about it in the Bible and this 00:30:04.700 --> 00:30:08.000 is--I'm not talking about these huge issues because I think even 00:30:08.033 --> 00:30:13.167 more just at a personal level of community standard level of, you 00:30:13.200 --> 00:30:16.400 know, just friendships and whatnot, we've gotten so 00:30:16.434 --> 00:30:17.767 nitpicky these days. 00:30:17.800 --> 00:30:21.000 I feel like where it's just, you know, give somebody a break, you 00:30:21.033 --> 00:30:23.100 know, give somebody the benefit of the doubt. 00:30:23.133 --> 00:30:25.833 There's a verse in Proverbs and I'm going to paraphrase it, but 00:30:25.866 --> 00:30:30.066 it says, "Hold on, there may be a very good explanation for what 00:30:30.100 --> 00:30:32.033 you just saw." 00:30:32.067 --> 00:30:34.633 And I think sometimes we tend exactly what you said because of 00:30:34.667 --> 00:30:37.233 our past trauma, we jump to conclusion-- 00:30:37.266 --> 00:30:39.900 Rebecca: Believe the worst without having any facts. 00:30:39.933 --> 00:30:41.266 Catherine: Absolutely. 00:30:41.300 --> 00:30:45.734 And then we say, "Well, I feel," well, facts and feelings, you 00:30:45.767 --> 00:30:47.633 know, it's the facts don't care about your feelings. 00:30:47.667 --> 00:30:50.234 I think Charlie Kirk says that, but that's the reality of it, 00:30:50.267 --> 00:30:53.300 and you can say that you feel that way, and we have a saying 00:30:53.333 --> 00:30:55.900 in our house, my husband and I, that we say, "This is not 00:30:55.934 --> 00:31:00.367 reality," and it's a kind of a pause moment for us to recenter 00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:03.666 if we're feeling a certain way and it's not truth. 00:31:03.700 --> 00:31:07.634 You know, I'm feeling this way, but that's not reality, 00:31:07.667 --> 00:31:09.133 you know. 00:31:09.167 --> 00:31:12.533 And so, when it comes to Peter, let me just go ahead and pull 00:31:12.567 --> 00:31:15.800 out the notes because I wanna get this right. 00:31:15.833 --> 00:31:19.000 Okay, so I love Peter. I feel like-- 00:31:19.034 --> 00:31:20.367 Rebecca: I do too. I've always loved him. 00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:21.700 Relatable. 00:31:21.734 --> 00:31:23.033 Catherine: Yes, that's how I feel. 00:31:23.067 --> 00:31:25.800 I'm like if I identify with anybody and it's unfortunate, 00:31:25.834 --> 00:31:27.833 but I identify with Peter. 00:31:27.866 --> 00:31:30.100 I would be the hothead accidentally cutting somebody's 00:31:30.134 --> 00:31:32.500 ear off and be like, "I'm so sorry. 00:31:32.533 --> 00:31:34.867 I was trying to do the right thing," you know, because he was 00:31:34.900 --> 00:31:36.267 trying to do the right thing. 00:31:36.300 --> 00:31:37.600 Rebecca: He was. He was being protective. 00:31:37.634 --> 00:31:38.933 Catherine: Yeah, he had good intentions. 00:31:38.966 --> 00:31:44.967 So, the stage here is that Jesus has just prophesized his death, 00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:47.633 what's about to happen to his closest of his friends. 00:31:47.667 --> 00:31:49.834 He's telling them, "Hey, I'm about to go to the cross, die, 00:31:49.867 --> 00:31:51.267 and I'm going to come back to life." 00:31:51.300 --> 00:31:54.667 And for whatever reason, they still just don't get it. 00:31:54.700 --> 00:31:57.567 And so he just prophesized that, and this is Peter's response in 00:31:57.600 --> 00:32:02.334 Matthew 16:22 says that, "Peter took him aside and began to 00:32:02.367 --> 00:32:06.000 reprimand him," he's reprimanding Jesus, which is 00:32:06.033 --> 00:32:07.367 very gutsy. 00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:09.700 He's reprimanding him for saying such things, and Peter says, 00:32:09.733 --> 00:32:13.166 "Heaven forbid, Lord, this will never happen to you." 00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:15.467 And so, Jesus responds in verse 23. 00:32:15.500 --> 00:32:18.300 He turns to Peter and says, "Get away from me, Satan. 00:32:18.333 --> 00:32:20.767 You are a dangerous trap to me. 00:32:20.800 --> 00:32:24.734 You're seeing things merely from a human point of view, not from 00:32:24.767 --> 00:32:26.233 God's point of view." 00:32:26.266 --> 00:32:30.033 So, I'm looking at this and I'm thinking, "Man, I would hate for 00:32:30.066 --> 00:32:34.133 Jesus to have to tell me that," and I'm pretty sure in some 00:32:34.166 --> 00:32:36.434 instances, he's kind of told me that in a kinder way. 00:32:36.467 --> 00:32:37.766 Like, "Just stop, Catherine. 00:32:37.800 --> 00:32:39.133 You're not doing the right thing." 00:32:39.167 --> 00:32:44.433 But the premise here is that there was a lot of 00:32:44.467 --> 00:32:46.133 relational tension. 00:32:46.167 --> 00:32:49.700 Like this was a tense moment in their friendship. 00:32:49.733 --> 00:32:52.600 And Peter had really good intentions. 00:32:52.634 --> 00:32:56.667 He wasn't coming against Jesus saying, "Man, I don't like you, 00:32:56.700 --> 00:33:01.033 and so I'm just out to just really mess up what you're--what 00:33:01.067 --> 00:33:02.367 you've been put on the earth to do." 00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:03.733 It wasn't that at all. 00:33:03.766 --> 00:33:05.667 He had good intentions, he deeply loved Jesus, and it was 00:33:05.700 --> 00:33:10.233 actually his love that was compelling him to confront and 00:33:10.267 --> 00:33:11.734 come against Jesus. 00:33:11.767 --> 00:33:13.867 And so, what that tells me, and I feel like this is where we're 00:33:13.900 --> 00:33:16.234 at many times in society is people have very good 00:33:16.267 --> 00:33:20.700 intentions, is what that tells me is I can have good intentions 00:33:20.733 --> 00:33:24.033 and becoming against somebody, but I can still be 00:33:24.067 --> 00:33:25.900 entirely wrong. 00:33:25.934 --> 00:33:28.133 And that's a very hard word because we don't want to tell 00:33:28.166 --> 00:33:29.467 people that. 00:33:29.500 --> 00:33:30.833 We don't say, "Hey, that's actually not the truth. 00:33:30.866 --> 00:33:33.100 Hey, that's actually incorrect." 00:33:33.133 --> 00:33:37.100 And so, at this moment in Peter's life, Jesus hits it head 00:33:37.133 --> 00:33:38.567 on and he says, "Get behind me, Satan." 00:33:38.600 --> 00:33:41.534 What he's saying is Satan or what he's saying is, "Peter, 00:33:41.567 --> 00:33:43.233 you're not operating in the right spirit." 00:33:43.267 --> 00:33:47.666 And so, scholars connect this moment in Peter's life with the 00:33:47.700 --> 00:33:51.433 very same spirit that actually tempted Jesus in the desert. 00:33:51.467 --> 00:33:53.966 And so, we have somebody, Peter walked with Jesus. 00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:57.167 I mean this is not questioning, "Is this person a Christian?" 00:33:57.200 --> 00:33:58.533 You know. 00:33:58.567 --> 00:34:01.567 This is not questioning, "Does this person know Jesus or not?" 00:34:01.600 --> 00:34:07.200 And even in the midst of all of that, Peter opposed what God was 00:34:07.234 --> 00:34:08.567 wanting to do. 00:34:08.600 --> 00:34:12.533 And he literally was coming in a wrong spirit. 00:34:12.566 --> 00:34:13.866 And so, that makes me think-- 00:34:13.900 --> 00:34:15.234 Rebecca: As a trap. 00:34:15.267 --> 00:34:17.633 Catherine: Yeah, it was a trap and it was literally a trap to 00:34:17.667 --> 00:34:20.000 derail God's plan for what was going on. 00:34:20.033 --> 00:34:22.767 And so, I have to ask the question, if Peter could walk 00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:26.833 daily with Jesus and literally be his best friend on the earth, 00:34:26.867 --> 00:34:30.433 how much more do I need to be careful when I'm criticizing 00:34:30.466 --> 00:34:32.433 something that I don't understand and I don't have all 00:34:32.467 --> 00:34:33.966 the facts on? 00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:35.834 And that's where we're at right now I feel like in life. 00:34:35.867 --> 00:34:38.466 And again, I get people's intention. 00:34:38.500 --> 00:34:41.233 And I wanna say this too, I fully believe in calling 00:34:41.267 --> 00:34:42.600 out sin. 00:34:42.633 --> 00:34:43.933 That's not what I'm saying. 00:34:43.967 --> 00:34:49.700 I think if there is a leader, a public leader who is in public 00:34:49.734 --> 00:34:52.433 unrepentant sin, he needs to be publicly called out and that's 00:34:52.466 --> 00:34:55.800 actually biblical, but there's a way to do that. 00:34:55.834 --> 00:35:00.000 And unfortunately, we're living in a society where people feel 00:35:00.034 --> 00:35:05.600 empowered by social media to judge people before they have 00:35:05.633 --> 00:35:08.366 all of the facts and it really--it clearly tells us in 00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:10.567 the Bible to not be somebody who judged. 00:35:10.600 --> 00:35:13.900 How we judge we're going to be judged, you know. 00:35:13.933 --> 00:35:16.867 But I think this is just a prime example that Peter had this 00:35:16.900 --> 00:35:20.066 moment where he could have been the supporter and the encourager 00:35:20.100 --> 00:35:23.900 and instead, he was the criticizer and he was the person 00:35:23.934 --> 00:35:26.333 who judged, he was the person who wanted to control 00:35:26.367 --> 00:35:27.666 the situation. 00:35:27.700 --> 00:35:30.767 And I just think, "Man, how many times do we do that with 00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:32.333 situations that we don't know? 00:35:32.366 --> 00:35:34.100 How many times do we try to stick our nose?" 00:35:34.134 --> 00:35:36.200 I don't mean it in a mean way, but stick our nose in other 00:35:36.233 --> 00:35:38.733 people's business when it's not our business. 00:35:38.766 --> 00:35:44.166 And the Bible clearly tells us that gossip is like these 00:35:44.200 --> 00:35:48.200 amazing morsels of food and they go deep into our inner parts, 00:35:48.233 --> 00:35:51.066 you know, and it's like choices morsels. 00:35:51.100 --> 00:35:52.433 That's what it says. 00:35:52.467 --> 00:35:54.100 We need to get a better translation like the message 00:35:54.133 --> 00:35:55.933 paraphrase or something like that for that. 00:35:55.967 --> 00:35:59.533 But the point of it is, is gossip goes deep down into 00:35:59.566 --> 00:36:00.967 our hearts-- 00:36:01.000 --> 00:36:03.667 Rebecca: It spreads quickly. Catherine: It does. 00:36:03.700 --> 00:36:05.000 "Leaven is the whole loaf," it says. 00:36:05.033 --> 00:36:09.067 And so, it's like how are we treating people in this season? 00:36:09.100 --> 00:36:12.333 And how are we talking about them behind closed doors and on 00:36:12.366 --> 00:36:17.067 social media, and are we making feelings based assumptions? 00:36:17.100 --> 00:36:20.500 And because however much I feel like maybe this is truth or this 00:36:20.533 --> 00:36:23.233 is not true, whatever it is, that doesn't matter. 00:36:23.267 --> 00:36:24.600 Facts matter. 00:36:24.634 --> 00:36:29.367 And according to the Bible and biblical justice, facts matter. 00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:31.200 And we don't talk about that all the time. 00:36:31.233 --> 00:36:34.834 And we kind of become these justice vigilantes, and it's not 00:36:34.867 --> 00:36:38.066 the biblical way of handling disagreements. 00:36:38.100 --> 00:36:40.767 Rebecca: No. Yeah, that's so good. 00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:42.600 Yeah, I remember my father-in-law, he told me a 00:36:42.633 --> 00:36:48.934 story where he likens it to like when someone spreads false 00:36:48.967 --> 00:36:52.700 reports about people, it's like there--it's like a story from a 00:36:52.734 --> 00:36:55.867 Rabbi, but he says it's like going up to a roof and slicing 00:36:55.900 --> 00:36:58.966 open a pillow, and all the feathers go out all over the 00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:02.800 town, and he's like that's trying to now 00:37:02.834 --> 00:37:04.133 pick up all the feathers. 00:37:04.167 --> 00:37:05.500 Well, it's already spread. 00:37:05.534 --> 00:37:06.833 You can't put them all back in, it's already out. 00:37:06.867 --> 00:37:10.033 And so, the damage that you do, you know, it's just--it's kind 00:37:10.067 --> 00:37:11.500 of irreversible. 00:37:11.534 --> 00:37:13.100 You can't fully gather it all back. 00:37:13.134 --> 00:37:16.366 And so, we just have to be so mindful and we need to be so 00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:19.400 careful about how we handle things and how we handle 00:37:19.433 --> 00:37:22.400 situations because, you know, these are people's lives and, 00:37:22.433 --> 00:37:25.633 you know, we need to be doing things in a way where we have 00:37:25.667 --> 00:37:28.667 wisdom and we have facts and we're doing things in love and 00:37:28.700 --> 00:37:30.900 we're doing things the way that God says. 00:37:30.934 --> 00:37:33.167 And I think a lot of people because they don't understand 00:37:33.200 --> 00:37:36.100 the Word, they're doing things, like you said, from a good 00:37:36.133 --> 00:37:38.234 place, but it's just not the right way. 00:37:38.267 --> 00:37:39.567 Catherine: Absolutely. 00:37:39.600 --> 00:37:41.633 And even understanding too, and I'm not talking about sin 00:37:41.666 --> 00:37:46.333 issues, but the church is allowed to have disagreements 00:37:46.366 --> 00:37:48.467 amongst each other, you know. 00:37:48.500 --> 00:37:52.067 We're supposed to agree on primary doctrine, essential 00:37:52.100 --> 00:37:56.600 doctrine, all that really matters, but after that, I think 00:37:56.634 --> 00:37:59.867 sometimes we tend to get so intense about our opinion and 00:37:59.900 --> 00:38:06.133 our way and what we want, and we forget the way of love, and we 00:38:06.166 --> 00:38:09.933 forget that, yeah, your opinion matters and your theological 00:38:09.966 --> 00:38:12.700 view on a secondary issue, not a heaven or hell issue, not a 00:38:12.733 --> 00:38:16.633 primary issue that's important that you believe that way, but 00:38:16.666 --> 00:38:18.067 you know it's more important? 00:38:18.100 --> 00:38:19.800 Unity. 00:38:19.834 --> 00:38:22.700 You know what is more important? Love. 00:38:22.733 --> 00:38:24.067 What is more important? 00:38:24.100 --> 00:38:25.400 The fruits of the spirit, kindness. 00:38:25.433 --> 00:38:29.000 And I think I've been in a place with that where it's like, you 00:38:29.033 --> 00:38:31.766 know, how do I treat people that I don't agree with in the body 00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:34.600 of Christ and does God care about that? 00:38:34.633 --> 00:38:37.900 And at least according to Scripture, he really, really 00:38:37.933 --> 00:38:42.500 cares, and he cares way more about kindness and unity instead 00:38:42.533 --> 00:38:45.400 of me having to prove that I'm right and prove a point. 00:38:45.433 --> 00:38:46.733 Rebecca: Totally. 00:38:46.766 --> 00:38:49.033 I mean, and I think--I just wish everyone could just learn to 00:38:49.067 --> 00:38:52.200 take personal responsibility, like radical personal 00:38:52.233 --> 00:38:55.133 responsibility for themselves, what they say, how they treat 00:38:55.167 --> 00:38:57.867 people, because if all of us could stop focusing on others 00:38:57.900 --> 00:39:02.134 and start focusing on how we handle ourselves in situations, 00:39:02.167 --> 00:39:04.167 we would all be better off, you know. 00:39:04.200 --> 00:39:07.900 But if you're just so busy judging someone else, you're not 00:39:07.933 --> 00:39:10.034 taking any ownership over how you're acting. 00:39:10.067 --> 00:39:11.400 It's a good distraction. 00:39:11.433 --> 00:39:13.400 And so, I think that's why a lot of people like judging because 00:39:13.433 --> 00:39:17.166 it's like it takes the focus off of maybe your own shortcomings 00:39:17.200 --> 00:39:20.067 and I think it's more important to take ownership of yourself 00:39:20.100 --> 00:39:23.800 first, especially before you go out for someone else. 00:39:23.834 --> 00:39:27.434 You know, what do you think the proper way--what is the proper 00:39:27.467 --> 00:39:31.167 way for the body of Christ to handle calling out sin? 00:39:31.200 --> 00:39:33.067 Like what is the right way? 00:39:33.100 --> 00:39:35.366 Catherine: Yeah, I think that is a very, very good question. 00:39:35.400 --> 00:39:38.467 There's multiple, you know, there's obviously--in Matthew, 00:39:38.500 --> 00:39:41.233 it talks about going to that person first and foremost. 00:39:41.267 --> 00:39:46.233 Yeah, I think that could--you could avoid a lot of error. 00:39:46.267 --> 00:39:50.633 Now there are times obviously, again, a public leader, this is 00:39:50.667 --> 00:39:52.533 my personal interpretation of it. 00:39:52.567 --> 00:39:54.766 The public leaders in public sin, they need to be publicly 00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:57.467 called out because they've hurt a lot of people, you know, and 00:39:57.500 --> 00:39:59.000 it does need to be dealt with. 00:39:59.033 --> 00:40:03.400 But that's not for just every single person to call out 00:40:03.434 --> 00:40:04.767 the sin. 00:40:04.800 --> 00:40:09.066 That's for their leaders to handle the situation. 00:40:09.100 --> 00:40:13.200 I believe our response as the people of God is to love and 00:40:13.233 --> 00:40:14.533 to cover. 00:40:14.566 --> 00:40:16.566 Love covers a multitude of sin. 00:40:16.600 --> 00:40:20.767 And I think a lot of times, you know, we again, we don't want 00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:22.100 people to be hurt. 00:40:22.133 --> 00:40:23.467 We're just people. 00:40:23.500 --> 00:40:26.600 I understand that, but there are protocols in the kingdom. 00:40:26.633 --> 00:40:29.634 And I think sometimes we take on burdens that we weren't meant to 00:40:29.667 --> 00:40:34.933 take on and yeah, this person might have hurt so and so, but 00:40:34.967 --> 00:40:37.734 the question is, are these leaders handling it? 00:40:37.767 --> 00:40:43.000 Then let the leaders handle it and let's just go about 00:40:43.033 --> 00:40:44.367 our lives. 00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:46.100 We don't have to make a big show of this. 00:40:46.133 --> 00:40:50.700 We don't have to post our opinion of it on social media. 00:40:50.733 --> 00:40:52.500 Rebecca: And it doesn't do any good when you go against 00:40:52.534 --> 00:40:53.833 these protocols. 00:40:53.867 --> 00:40:55.633 You're just causing more damage and that's why, you know, the 00:40:55.666 --> 00:40:58.633 enemy is having a heyday in the church because, you know, people 00:40:58.666 --> 00:41:01.766 get in their feelings, and they lash out and they don't even 00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:04.334 realize that what they're doing isn't biblical, you know, and 00:41:04.367 --> 00:41:07.767 they feel justified in doing it and it just becomes a big mess. 00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:09.900 Catherine: Well then, I think a lot of times too, so let's take 00:41:09.933 --> 00:41:14.433 out the big sin issues because even with the big sin issues, 00:41:14.467 --> 00:41:18.366 for the most part, there are a lot of really good churches, 00:41:18.400 --> 00:41:21.834 there are a lot of good pastors that aren't doing crazy things 00:41:21.867 --> 00:41:24.000 behind the scenes, they're loving their church as well. 00:41:24.033 --> 00:41:28.767 It's just the media has really focused in on some bigger 00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:30.100 issues, you know. 00:41:30.133 --> 00:41:32.933 So, let's take the bigger issues because most people are just 00:41:32.966 --> 00:41:36.633 living life and they're having to deal with maybe smaller 00:41:36.667 --> 00:41:40.133 issues just in friend groups, and they're having to deal with 00:41:40.167 --> 00:41:43.766 differences of opinions that just kind of cause friction in 00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:45.100 the body of Christ. 00:41:45.134 --> 00:41:47.434 And I think the first thing is to recognize that God put us in 00:41:47.467 --> 00:41:49.300 a family for a reason. 00:41:49.334 --> 00:41:52.900 And that means that he put us with people, not necessarily 00:41:52.933 --> 00:41:55.966 people that we agree with on everything, but people that are 00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:57.300 going to sharpen us. 00:41:57.333 --> 00:41:58.666 It says iron sharpens iron. 00:41:58.700 --> 00:42:02.500 So, we have to expect that when we have people coming from all 00:42:02.533 --> 00:42:05.234 different backgrounds that there's gonna be some tension 00:42:05.267 --> 00:42:08.166 there like I don't, you know, I don't believe that, you know, I 00:42:08.200 --> 00:42:10.166 need to raise my kids that way and you believe you need to 00:42:10.200 --> 00:42:11.700 raise your kids that way, you know. 00:42:11.733 --> 00:42:13.267 It can be little things. 00:42:13.300 --> 00:42:16.467 I'm shocked at how intense people get about, "Did you have 00:42:16.500 --> 00:42:17.800 an epidural? 00:42:17.833 --> 00:42:19.167 Did you not have an epidural? 00:42:19.200 --> 00:42:20.500 Do you believe in birth control? 00:42:20.533 --> 00:42:21.867 Do you not believe in birth control?" 00:42:21.900 --> 00:42:23.833 I'm like, "Whoa, is that really what we're gonna fight about in 00:42:23.866 --> 00:42:25.334 the body of Christ right now?" 00:42:25.367 --> 00:42:26.700 You know? 00:42:26.733 --> 00:42:30.900 But it's at a level of recognizing, okay, the iron, the 00:42:30.933 --> 00:42:34.033 friction that's happening right now is actually making me--if I 00:42:34.066 --> 00:42:37.867 press into this right and I walk in forgiveness and humility and 00:42:37.900 --> 00:42:40.833 kindness, this friction is actually going to grow my 00:42:40.867 --> 00:42:42.733 character and make me a better person. 00:42:42.767 --> 00:42:44.100 So, it's not a bad thing. 00:42:44.134 --> 00:42:47.033 It's like embrace that moment, embrace the friction, you know. 00:42:47.066 --> 00:42:52.134 But then also, I think we're quick to cut off people when we 00:42:52.167 --> 00:42:53.600 don't see eye to eye. 00:42:53.634 --> 00:42:54.933 Rebecca: Especially today. 00:42:54.966 --> 00:42:57.200 I feel like that's a lot of the way people have been told to 00:42:57.234 --> 00:43:02.100 handle things and I really do think that God, we are a family 00:43:02.134 --> 00:43:06.066 and community, and I think family isn't always, 00:43:06.100 --> 00:43:07.466 you know, you're not always gonna 00:43:07.500 --> 00:43:09.800 100% agree, but can you still show up and love 00:43:09.833 --> 00:43:12.900 one another, you know, even with disagreements and I think that 00:43:12.933 --> 00:43:14.500 is the kind of love and grace. 00:43:14.534 --> 00:43:17.733 I'm not saying tolerate everything, but I'm saying that 00:43:17.767 --> 00:43:21.434 over stuff like that where it can be worked out, let's try to 00:43:21.467 --> 00:43:22.767 work it out, you know. 00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:26.000 Let's try, you know, let's not immediately cut the other person 00:43:26.033 --> 00:43:29.000 off because we were designed for community and I would even say 00:43:29.034 --> 00:43:32.734 to people, and this is what gives me peace, is that if you 00:43:32.767 --> 00:43:35.666 see someone and you're like, "I don't know what's going on, but 00:43:35.700 --> 00:43:37.800 I think maybe there's something going on with this person and 00:43:37.833 --> 00:43:41.067 something isn't right," I would just encourage the believer this 00:43:41.100 --> 00:43:44.467 gives me peace about situations is that God sees everything and 00:43:44.500 --> 00:43:45.833 he misses nothing. 00:43:45.867 --> 00:43:50.367 And it says in Corinthians, "We will all stand before God and 00:43:50.400 --> 00:43:51.733 be judged." 00:43:51.767 --> 00:43:54.133 Like God is the judge and he will judge all of 00:43:54.167 --> 00:43:55.500 us accordingly. 00:43:55.534 --> 00:43:57.800 And even people who did good things, he will test the 00:43:57.833 --> 00:43:59.366 motivations behind it. 00:43:59.400 --> 00:44:02.800 And the Bible says that it will be tested through fire. 00:44:02.833 --> 00:44:07.566 And that if it is like wheat or grass, it will not last, but if 00:44:07.600 --> 00:44:09.800 it's gold, you know, something strong, it will last through 00:44:09.833 --> 00:44:11.133 the fire. 00:44:11.167 --> 00:44:13.800 And so, I know that God is going to set everything right. 00:44:13.833 --> 00:44:16.700 And so, we can be at peace and not carry that burden because 00:44:16.733 --> 00:44:18.600 that's not the burden he wants us to carry. 00:44:18.634 --> 00:44:19.934 Catherine: That's it. I love that. 00:44:19.967 --> 00:44:21.266 I think that's so good. 00:44:21.300 --> 00:44:24.400 It's that reality that what's done in dark will be brought 00:44:24.433 --> 00:44:25.733 to light. 00:44:25.767 --> 00:44:27.100 Rebecca: It will, it always does. 00:44:27.134 --> 00:44:28.434 It always does. 00:44:28.467 --> 00:44:29.933 Catherine: And then we've got, you know, verses in the Bible 00:44:29.966 --> 00:44:33.934 that it says that Jesus was silent before his accusers. 00:44:33.967 --> 00:44:36.300 And this is Peter the hothead saying this. 00:44:36.333 --> 00:44:39.067 This is his eventual conclusion of life. 00:44:39.100 --> 00:44:42.867 He's older at this point and he says, you know, think of Jesus, 00:44:42.900 --> 00:44:48.500 you know, and he said he was 100% silent before his accusers. 00:44:48.533 --> 00:44:50.000 That's amazing to me. 00:44:50.034 --> 00:44:52.633 And I think one of the things too with it in Philippians, Paul 00:44:52.667 --> 00:44:55.600 the Apostle talks about it, he talks about his own journey and 00:44:55.633 --> 00:44:57.100 he says, you know, "I've not arrived," he said, "but I 00:44:57.133 --> 00:44:58.433 press on." 00:44:58.466 --> 00:44:59.800 This is a Catherine paraphrase. 00:44:59.833 --> 00:45:01.200 He says, "I press on to the mark." 00:45:01.233 --> 00:45:03.533 And then he says it again, "Again, me, Paul the Apostle, I 00:45:03.566 --> 00:45:05.967 haven't arrived," so it's recognizing that we're all 00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:07.300 growing together. 00:45:07.334 --> 00:45:08.667 We're on a journey. 00:45:08.700 --> 00:45:11.200 And then he says this--he says, "And all whom are mature should 00:45:11.233 --> 00:45:13.867 take on this stance of recognizing we haven't arrived." 00:45:13.900 --> 00:45:15.700 So, that means that there could be things in our character that 00:45:15.733 --> 00:45:18.300 are wrong, there are things that in our character that God wants 00:45:18.334 --> 00:45:20.034 to correct and grow us in. 00:45:20.067 --> 00:45:21.400 And then I love this. 00:45:21.433 --> 00:45:25.700 He says, "And if you disagree on something, perhaps the Holy 00:45:25.733 --> 00:45:27.034 Spirit will make it clear." 00:45:27.067 --> 00:45:29.967 And I remember reading that and thinking, "Okay, I need to go a 00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:31.334 little bit deeper with this. 00:45:31.367 --> 00:45:32.833 What does this mean?" 00:45:32.867 --> 00:45:36.000 If you disagree on something, perhaps the Holy Spirit will 00:45:36.034 --> 00:45:37.367 make it clear. 00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:39.133 And so, I was starting to read commentaries and different 00:45:39.167 --> 00:45:40.467 opinions on it. 00:45:40.500 --> 00:45:44.166 And what that verse is saying is, don't focus, as a church, 00:45:44.200 --> 00:45:47.467 don't focus on what you don't agree on. 00:45:47.500 --> 00:45:49.800 Focus on what you can agree on. 00:45:49.833 --> 00:45:51.133 Rebecca: That's a good word. 00:45:51.167 --> 00:45:54.133 Catherine: And so again, it's--and I'm not saying I'm 00:45:54.167 --> 00:45:58.633 not--we have to be in agreement on primary doctrine on the big 00:45:58.667 --> 00:46:02.100 issues on sin and all that kind of stuff, but that's not a lot 00:46:02.133 --> 00:46:05.967 of times what trip people up in everyday life. 00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:09.900 It's these little petty things that we want to change people. 00:46:09.933 --> 00:46:13.500 And he says, "Hey, If you don't agree, perhaps maybe leave it up 00:46:13.533 --> 00:46:15.300 to the Holy Spirit to handle." 00:46:15.333 --> 00:46:17.034 And he said, "So don't even focus on that. 00:46:17.067 --> 00:46:20.866 So get your eyes literally make it where your brain is creating 00:46:20.900 --> 00:46:24.300 a new neurological pathway where you stop thinking about that. 00:46:24.333 --> 00:46:28.067 You gonna have to blaze a new trail of thought and think on 00:46:28.100 --> 00:46:31.666 the things that you guys agree on in this season." 00:46:31.700 --> 00:46:35.000 So, now I don't have to be my brother's keeper in the sense of 00:46:35.033 --> 00:46:37.367 like we have to be on the same page of all this. 00:46:37.400 --> 00:46:38.700 That's up to the Holy Spirit. 00:46:38.733 --> 00:46:40.700 I'm on my own journey trying to get the plank out of my eye. 00:46:40.733 --> 00:46:43.600 I don't have to look at the spec in theirs, you know. 00:46:43.633 --> 00:46:46.200 And in doing that, I have a piece and I've taken off a 00:46:46.234 --> 00:46:49.400 burden that I never was meant to carry. 00:46:49.433 --> 00:46:53.100 And I don't have to sever relationship on issues that 00:46:53.134 --> 00:46:54.434 are secondary. 00:46:54.467 --> 00:46:55.800 Does that make sense? 00:46:55.833 --> 00:46:57.133 Rebecca: Oh, it makes total sense and it's understanding 00:46:57.167 --> 00:47:00.400 that like the Holy Spirit is the convictor and he will do 00:47:00.434 --> 00:47:01.733 his job. 00:47:01.766 --> 00:47:04.433 Catherine: Excellent at it. Rebecca: Yeah, he's much better. 00:47:04.466 --> 00:47:06.200 It's like we need to know what God's job is and what his 00:47:06.234 --> 00:47:07.533 responsibility and what our role is. 00:47:07.566 --> 00:47:10.200 And I think if we could just get that straight, we would--for me 00:47:10.233 --> 00:47:13.133 that's how I have found peace is understanding like Jesus said, 00:47:13.166 --> 00:47:15.533 "My yoke is easy, my burden is light." 00:47:15.566 --> 00:47:18.400 And so, so many people are putting burdens on themselves 00:47:18.434 --> 00:47:21.000 that God never asked to burden themselves with. 00:47:21.033 --> 00:47:22.500 So, I just think that's such wisdom. 00:47:22.533 --> 00:47:24.966 Well, I know we're almost out of time, but I really want to talk 00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:30.400 to you about your journey--your fertility journey with having 00:47:30.433 --> 00:47:31.767 your baby. 00:47:31.800 --> 00:47:33.333 So, tell us. 00:47:33.366 --> 00:47:37.433 You and your husband get married and you start trying to have 00:47:37.466 --> 00:47:40.134 kids and what ends up happening? 00:47:40.167 --> 00:47:42.534 Catherine: So, if you would have told me that I would have been 00:47:42.567 --> 00:47:45.433 somebody who was going to struggle with fertility, you 00:47:45.466 --> 00:47:47.567 know, younger Catherine, I would have said that's never going 00:47:47.600 --> 00:47:49.033 to happen. 00:47:49.066 --> 00:47:50.367 I'm healthy. 00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:53.434 It's just that wasn't even in my thought process and all of a 00:47:53.467 --> 00:47:57.333 sudden, I'm expecting to be pregnant and I'm not 00:47:57.366 --> 00:47:58.667 getting pregnant. 00:47:58.700 --> 00:48:02.200 And so, a while into it, we finally decided I need to go to 00:48:02.233 --> 00:48:04.834 the doctor just to see, just, you know, if there's something 00:48:04.867 --> 00:48:09.734 that I can fix, we can fix naturally and they couldn't find 00:48:09.767 --> 00:48:14.000 anything wrong and it was really heartbreaking because I hadn't 00:48:14.033 --> 00:48:18.067 really dissected my dreams until I came to this moment, you know, 00:48:18.100 --> 00:48:22.767 and I realized out of anything, I wanted to be a mom. 00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:26.533 That was, I mean, I love leading worship, I enjoy speaking, I'm 00:48:26.566 --> 00:48:30.933 very thankful for those things, but at the core of Catherine, my 00:48:30.967 --> 00:48:34.600 heart's desire was to always be a mom. 00:48:34.634 --> 00:48:37.233 And to see all of my friends around me-- 00:48:37.267 --> 00:48:38.633 Rebecca: Yeah, because they're all having kids. 00:48:38.666 --> 00:48:40.000 Catherine: All having babies. 00:48:40.033 --> 00:48:42.100 Baby showers were the hardest to go to, you know. 00:48:42.133 --> 00:48:45.766 It just was like a punch in the gut every time trying not to 00:48:45.800 --> 00:48:48.500 cry, and it wasn't that I was upset other people were getting 00:48:48.534 --> 00:48:49.834 their miracle. 00:48:49.867 --> 00:48:52.933 I was really happy about that, but I also wanted my miracle. 00:48:52.967 --> 00:48:55.267 Rebecca: But it just made you think each time like, "Is it 00:48:55.300 --> 00:48:56.834 going to happen for me?" 00:48:56.867 --> 00:48:58.800 Well, how did you reconcile that with the Lord? 00:48:58.833 --> 00:49:00.867 Like did it affect your relationship with him? 00:49:00.900 --> 00:49:02.700 Were you disappointed? 00:49:02.733 --> 00:49:05.167 Catherine: So, I mean, I had some frank conversations and I'm 00:49:05.200 --> 00:49:08.300 so grateful for the kindness of the Lord and I don't know why I 00:49:08.333 --> 00:49:11.366 asked this one day that I said, "Lord, are you mad at me? 00:49:11.400 --> 00:49:12.900 Like, are we okay?" 00:49:12.934 --> 00:49:15.200 Rebecca: But can we just normalize how important that is 00:49:15.233 --> 00:49:17.133 to have those kind of conversations with God? 00:49:17.166 --> 00:49:19.734 Because if you don't have these kind of conversations, I think a 00:49:19.767 --> 00:49:22.567 wall can almost be formed between you and the Lord because 00:49:22.600 --> 00:49:25.067 you're not getting those big questions out of the way. 00:49:25.100 --> 00:49:27.267 Catherine: And he knows that we're thinking it anyways. 00:49:27.300 --> 00:49:29.400 So, it's like why don't just we can be honest with it. 00:49:29.433 --> 00:49:30.767 I just said, "Lord, are you mad at me?" 00:49:30.800 --> 00:49:33.000 And I just said--I said, "I see all of these people," and I 00:49:33.033 --> 00:49:34.700 said, "and I'm just frustrated," you know. 00:49:34.733 --> 00:49:38.133 And I remember even telling him, "I sing a song that says you 00:49:38.166 --> 00:49:43.500 have never lost a battle," and I said, "and I believe that in my 00:49:43.533 --> 00:49:46.933 head, but I really need to get it in my heart," you know, and I 00:49:46.967 --> 00:49:49.733 said, "because I'm struggling here because right here, the 00:49:49.766 --> 00:49:51.634 battle is--you're not winning. 00:49:51.667 --> 00:49:53.666 I'm not seeing a win here," you know. 00:49:53.700 --> 00:49:57.567 And I think for me, I wrestled with it and got a promise and I 00:49:57.600 --> 00:50:01.334 just--the piece that I had was keep on believing, but I 00:50:01.367 --> 00:50:05.133 remember reading the Hall of Faith in Hebrews and it's 00:50:05.166 --> 00:50:08.466 talking about Abraham I believe and it says that he actually 00:50:08.500 --> 00:50:11.533 believed--basically, he died believing the promise, but he 00:50:11.567 --> 00:50:12.867 actually didn't lay a hold of it. 00:50:12.900 --> 00:50:14.600 He saw it from afar off. 00:50:14.634 --> 00:50:17.000 And I paused and I said, "Wait a second," because in the 00:50:17.033 --> 00:50:19.467 charismatic faith, we always talk, "It's going to happen, 00:50:19.500 --> 00:50:22.667 period," which that's good faith to have and that's good language 00:50:22.700 --> 00:50:25.234 to have and I still talk like that, you know, because I have 00:50:25.267 --> 00:50:28.966 faith, but the reality is, is what are you going to do if it 00:50:29.000 --> 00:50:30.300 never happens? 00:50:30.334 --> 00:50:33.033 Rebecca: Yeah, it actually says there's a group of people that 00:50:33.067 --> 00:50:37.167 never the fulfillment of the promises made to them on 00:50:37.200 --> 00:50:38.500 the earth. 00:50:38.533 --> 00:50:40.333 Yeah, it's crazy. 00:50:40.367 --> 00:50:41.700 Catherine: And they made it and they made it into 00:50:41.733 --> 00:50:43.066 the Hall of Faith. 00:50:43.100 --> 00:50:44.400 That's the thing. So-- 00:50:44.433 --> 00:50:45.733 Rebecca: Because they believed. Catherine: They believed. 00:50:45.767 --> 00:50:47.166 And so--and it was credited to them as righteousness. 00:50:47.200 --> 00:50:50.433 And so, I just kind of solidified in my heart again, 00:50:50.466 --> 00:50:53.300 looking to the older generation, the people who have gone before 00:50:53.333 --> 00:50:55.000 us, I want to be like Abraham. 00:50:55.033 --> 00:50:56.333 I want to be like Sarah. 00:50:56.366 --> 00:50:58.167 I want to be like these people who made it into the Hall 00:50:58.200 --> 00:50:59.533 of Faith. 00:50:59.566 --> 00:51:03.333 And so, I said, "Okay God, if I have to get to the end of my 00:51:03.367 --> 00:51:05.967 life believing for these promises, that's the stance I'm 00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:07.833 going to take and that's the posture I'm going to take. 00:51:07.866 --> 00:51:10.200 But if I never see it, you're still worthy. 00:51:10.233 --> 00:51:14.000 If I never see it," and we obviously see the story of Job. 00:51:14.033 --> 00:51:17.234 Everything was taken from him and he didn't curse God, 00:51:17.267 --> 00:51:18.600 you know. 00:51:18.633 --> 00:51:21.534 And I think sometimes I don't think we realize that we think 00:51:21.567 --> 00:51:26.300 this way, but we have this thought about God that he's only 00:51:26.333 --> 00:51:28.833 God and we're only going to serve him if he does what 00:51:28.867 --> 00:51:30.200 we want. 00:51:30.233 --> 00:51:31.534 But that's just not reality. 00:51:31.567 --> 00:51:34.533 If he's God, he's God regardless of what happens in our life, and 00:51:34.566 --> 00:51:36.533 he's still always going to be worthy. 00:51:36.566 --> 00:51:39.267 And so, I think I finally found peace of saying, " I'm still 00:51:39.300 --> 00:51:43.067 going to contend, but if I never see it, he's still faithful and 00:51:43.100 --> 00:51:44.433 he's still good." 00:51:44.467 --> 00:51:48.700 Rebecca: Yeah, I think there's kind of that laying down our 00:51:48.734 --> 00:51:52.233 lives and our dreams and just fully trusting if it doesn't go 00:51:52.267 --> 00:51:56.067 the way that we want, still choosing that I'm serving him 00:51:56.100 --> 00:51:58.833 for him, not for the life that I wish. 00:51:58.866 --> 00:52:01.767 And I think too I think it's just so important to have an 00:52:01.800 --> 00:52:05.667 eternal perspective on life and to understand that this life is 00:52:05.700 --> 00:52:07.067 just like a vapor. 00:52:07.100 --> 00:52:10.666 And so, we just need to do what he's called us to do and be more 00:52:10.700 --> 00:52:13.233 focused on eternity than the present, but I think it's just 00:52:13.267 --> 00:52:15.833 so easy, I know for me, to get caught up in the present and 00:52:15.867 --> 00:52:19.900 having life the way and having my circumstances the way I want 00:52:19.933 --> 00:52:22.566 them and just coming to a place of like, "Okay God, I just 00:52:22.600 --> 00:52:25.433 surrender this, you know, and whatever happens I'm gonna serve 00:52:25.467 --> 00:52:27.100 you no matter what." 00:52:27.133 --> 00:52:29.400 And so, that was your heart heart posture. 00:52:29.433 --> 00:52:30.767 Catherine: It was. 00:52:30.800 --> 00:52:33.334 And it's hard, you know, and my dad said something too that 00:52:33.367 --> 00:52:37.000 really helped me, you know, obviously, you know, Jesus 00:52:37.034 --> 00:52:38.367 didn't get married. 00:52:38.400 --> 00:52:40.433 I know this is an odd thought, but family in heaven can 00:52:40.467 --> 00:52:41.767 be different. 00:52:41.800 --> 00:52:44.367 We don't know exactly what it's gonna look like, but I was--one 00:52:44.400 --> 00:52:48.267 of the saddest things to me was I thought, "What's my family 00:52:48.300 --> 00:52:49.966 gonna look like when I get to heaven?" 00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:51.333 Rebecca: Wait, I think about this. 00:52:51.366 --> 00:52:52.666 This is so funny. 00:52:52.700 --> 00:52:54.033 I've never talked to anyone about this. 00:52:54.067 --> 00:52:55.367 It's so crazy. 00:52:55.400 --> 00:52:57.100 Catherine: I can't believe I've said it on a podcast, but it is 00:52:57.133 --> 00:52:58.467 what it is. 00:52:58.500 --> 00:52:59.866 Rebecca: I have thought about this though. 00:52:59.900 --> 00:53:01.200 That's so funny. 00:53:01.233 --> 00:53:02.566 Okay, sorry, that was me freaking out for a moment. 00:53:02.600 --> 00:53:03.900 Catherine: But it's true. 00:53:03.933 --> 00:53:07.066 I mean, Jesus has the biggest family in the world, you know, 00:53:07.100 --> 00:53:08.834 and we're a part of that. 00:53:08.867 --> 00:53:13.834 And so, I don't think our finite minds can comprehend that that 00:53:13.867 --> 00:53:17.133 on that side of eternity, things are genuinely going to be good 00:53:17.166 --> 00:53:19.133 and genuinely going to be okay. 00:53:19.166 --> 00:53:21.566 And so, that was the thing I would think about and it's like 00:53:21.600 --> 00:53:24.167 Paul the Apostle didn't have kids, you know, and he didn't 00:53:24.200 --> 00:53:27.033 have a legacy and I just thought, "Okay," at different 00:53:27.067 --> 00:53:30.100 times I said, "I'm standing with Jesus, I'm standing with Paul 00:53:30.134 --> 00:53:33.500 the Apostle, I'm standing with people who didn't have that and 00:53:33.533 --> 00:53:37.100 they still are in eternity and everything is amazing." 00:53:37.133 --> 00:53:41.100 And I--we can't wrap our minds fully around what family truly 00:53:41.133 --> 00:53:44.100 is, but it's much bigger than what we see on the earth. 00:53:44.134 --> 00:53:46.733 So, I kept on believing, but I also was like, you know, the 00:53:46.767 --> 00:53:49.000 Lord knows, and I'm living for eternity, not just for 00:53:49.033 --> 00:53:50.333 this life. 00:53:50.367 --> 00:53:52.033 And that honestly helped me a lot too. 00:53:52.067 --> 00:53:54.067 Rebecca: Yeah, and it's like Paul didn't have any children, 00:53:54.100 --> 00:53:57.067 but he had a legacy and he had a spiritual son Timothy. 00:53:57.100 --> 00:54:00.534 And we look at the legacy with the--with those letters and I 00:54:00.567 --> 00:54:02.367 mean, the church, I mean, massive legacy. 00:54:02.400 --> 00:54:03.733 So, you're right. 00:54:03.767 --> 00:54:06.000 There--even if it doesn't--things aren't 00:54:06.033 --> 00:54:08.533 physically the way that you planned, God can still do 00:54:08.566 --> 00:54:11.400 something, and there is like eternity, we can't really fathom 00:54:11.433 --> 00:54:12.767 exactly what it's going to be like. 00:54:12.800 --> 00:54:14.733 We just know it's going to be good and we know that we'll be 00:54:14.766 --> 00:54:16.334 in a family. 00:54:16.367 --> 00:54:19.434 So, you're in this place of surrender, eight years, am 00:54:19.467 --> 00:54:20.800 I correct? 00:54:20.833 --> 00:54:22.133 Passed by. 00:54:22.167 --> 00:54:23.500 Catherine: Yes, so eight years, about eight and a half. 00:54:23.534 --> 00:54:25.433 Rebecca: Were you just like done like thinking about it? 00:54:25.467 --> 00:54:28.066 Like were you still trying or were you just like whatever 00:54:28.100 --> 00:54:29.400 happens happens. 00:54:29.433 --> 00:54:31.700 Catherine: I was probably a mixture, you know, depending on 00:54:31.734 --> 00:54:34.800 the day, but it was definitely, "Okay Lord, you're just gonna 00:54:34.833 --> 00:54:36.166 have to do this." 00:54:36.200 --> 00:54:38.033 And the thing that was interesting too is because we 00:54:38.067 --> 00:54:39.400 had looked into adoption. 00:54:39.433 --> 00:54:41.966 We actually had a couple of things fall through. 00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:44.400 So that was hard as well-- 00:54:44.434 --> 00:54:46.233 Rebecca: Because you thought, "Maybe it'll be this path." 00:54:46.266 --> 00:54:50.033 Catherine: Yes and--but my husband always said and he was 00:54:50.066 --> 00:54:52.100 great because we would love to adopt kids anyways. 00:54:52.133 --> 00:54:54.066 That's like in our heart to do. 00:54:54.100 --> 00:54:57.034 He said--I'm great with following that, but my husband, 00:54:57.067 --> 00:55:00.567 oh God bless him, he is such a rock and he just said, "I feel 00:55:00.600 --> 00:55:04.733 from the Lord we are going to have biological children," and 00:55:04.767 --> 00:55:09.267 he really felt led to not--for us not to go the IVF route. 00:55:09.300 --> 00:55:11.400 That just wasn't for us. 00:55:11.433 --> 00:55:15.767 We just prayed about it and the reason behind that for him, that 00:55:15.800 --> 00:55:17.100 was our faith journey. 00:55:17.134 --> 00:55:19.367 And he just said, "Catherine, I feel like from the Lord 00:55:19.400 --> 00:55:21.267 naturally we're going to have kids." 00:55:21.300 --> 00:55:24.067 And he said--he was so encouraging just of praying 00:55:24.100 --> 00:55:25.400 for me. 00:55:25.433 --> 00:55:27.200 I mean, he'd picked me up off the floor sometimes because I 00:55:27.234 --> 00:55:29.400 would just be crying, you know, Mother's Day was the hardest, 00:55:29.433 --> 00:55:31.867 you know, or--and he would just say, you know, because we don't 00:55:31.900 --> 00:55:34.833 talk about that, but it's okay to try and grieve in the 00:55:34.867 --> 00:55:38.234 process, you know, because it does sometimes feel like the 00:55:38.267 --> 00:55:39.800 death of a dream, you know. 00:55:39.833 --> 00:55:41.134 Rebecca: Totally. 00:55:41.167 --> 00:55:43.500 And I think as women, I think a lot of women, that is your 00:55:43.533 --> 00:55:47.400 greatest dream, is to be a mom because I mean, that's how it is 00:55:47.433 --> 00:55:48.734 for me. 00:55:48.767 --> 00:55:50.900 And I didn't even really realize the fullness of it until I had 00:55:50.934 --> 00:55:52.500 my first child, you know. 00:55:52.534 --> 00:55:55.067 I don't even think some women--they don't even sometimes 00:55:55.100 --> 00:55:57.700 even tap into it sometimes so they have their own kids, 00:55:57.733 --> 00:55:59.067 you know. 00:55:59.100 --> 00:56:00.900 But I think for most women, I would think that's one of the 00:56:00.934 --> 00:56:02.900 most important things to them that they'll ever do. 00:56:02.933 --> 00:56:06.367 There's, I mean, we're created to have babies, you know, like 00:56:06.400 --> 00:56:08.833 that's an honor that God has given us. 00:56:08.867 --> 00:56:10.200 Catherine: I agree. 00:56:10.233 --> 00:56:12.067 Yeah, so it was--I mean, I was so thankful for my husband who 00:56:12.100 --> 00:56:15.833 just--he just said, "I believe," you know, "we've got a word from 00:56:15.867 --> 00:56:18.034 the Lord Catherine, we're going to stand on this." 00:56:18.067 --> 00:56:19.367 And I just said, "Okay." 00:56:19.400 --> 00:56:22.900 And that's what I love the covering of a solid man who 00:56:22.934 --> 00:56:24.266 loves the Lord. 00:56:24.300 --> 00:56:26.967 Rebecca: Praise God. That's like my husband. 00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:30.067 I mean, just stayed through all the crazy--all my ups and downs. 00:56:30.100 --> 00:56:32.200 We need God. 00:56:32.234 --> 00:56:34.200 Catherine: I mean, we're like the--I feel like we're like the 00:56:34.233 --> 00:56:37.066 Holy Spirit side, you know, the feeling side of the marriage was 00:56:37.100 --> 00:56:40.067 that's great and the expression of the Lord through that way, 00:56:40.100 --> 00:56:41.534 but thank God for their steadiness. 00:56:41.567 --> 00:56:43.133 Rebecca: Consistency. 00:56:43.166 --> 00:56:46.500 Yeah, I'm thanking God all the time for that, seriously. 00:56:46.533 --> 00:56:47.866 I love it. 00:56:47.900 --> 00:56:50.200 Catherine: But yeah, so eight and a half years, I actually had 00:56:50.233 --> 00:56:53.400 a miscarriage, so I had never gotten pregnant, believed that 00:56:53.433 --> 00:56:56.033 the promise was here. 00:56:56.066 --> 00:56:59.800 And nine weeks into it--eight or nine weeks into it, I found 00:56:59.833 --> 00:57:03.767 myself at the ER because I've been bleeding and yeah. 00:57:03.800 --> 00:57:05.100 It was very hard. 00:57:05.133 --> 00:57:07.433 I asked the Lord, you know, "What's going on," and I really 00:57:07.466 --> 00:57:09.600 felt like he just said, "You're having a miscarriage." 00:57:09.633 --> 00:57:10.934 And-- 00:57:10.967 --> 00:57:13.400 Rebecca: I can't imagine that feeling after waiting so long. 00:57:13.433 --> 00:57:14.867 I feel like I'd be devastated. 00:57:14.900 --> 00:57:17.033 Catherine: It was very hard, but the Lord prepared me. 00:57:17.067 --> 00:57:21.133 I'd read Job, the book of Job the week before, and I 00:57:21.166 --> 00:57:22.500 feel like-- 00:57:22.533 --> 00:57:25.200 Rebecca: The book of Suffering. Catherine: I mean, it really is. 00:57:25.233 --> 00:57:27.634 And so, immediately when the nurse told me that I had a 00:57:27.667 --> 00:57:30.600 miscarriage, I just said, "The Lord gives and the Lord 00:57:30.633 --> 00:57:31.967 takes away. 00:57:32.000 --> 00:57:33.300 Blessed be the name of the Lord." 00:57:33.333 --> 00:57:35.466 But he had been prepping my heart for this, and I don't know 00:57:35.500 --> 00:57:39.300 why, you know, I don't have an explanation on this side of 00:57:39.333 --> 00:57:40.767 eternity why that happened. 00:57:40.800 --> 00:57:43.300 I know I have a baby in heaven waiting for me and I can't wait. 00:57:43.333 --> 00:57:46.467 I think it's a girl, can't wait to meet her and 00:57:46.500 --> 00:57:47.833 she's worshiping. 00:57:47.867 --> 00:57:51.100 And there was a phrase that somebody said, "I imagine the 00:57:51.133 --> 00:57:54.166 first thing your baby saw when she opened her eyes was the face 00:57:54.200 --> 00:57:56.033 of Jesus," you know. 00:57:56.066 --> 00:57:57.400 And-- 00:57:57.433 --> 00:57:58.733 Rebecca: She's in the most perfect place, even though that 00:57:58.766 --> 00:58:01.300 doesn't take away the pain of it, but at least there's a 00:58:01.333 --> 00:58:03.500 little bit of peace with that. 00:58:03.533 --> 00:58:05.667 Catherine: Yeah, I mean, and I'm going to see her again and it's 00:58:05.700 --> 00:58:08.533 like a blink, a turn, you know, this life is like a blink 00:58:08.567 --> 00:58:09.866 for her. 00:58:09.900 --> 00:58:12.233 She's not even missing us yet, you know. 00:58:12.266 --> 00:58:13.600 And-- 00:58:13.633 --> 00:58:16.300 Rebecca: It's different there. Catherine: Yeah, it is. 00:58:16.334 --> 00:58:18.300 And so, I'm just a little while after that, I got healed and I 00:58:18.333 --> 00:58:22.633 got pregnant again, and we now have a four and a half month old 00:58:22.667 --> 00:58:23.967 miracle baby. 00:58:24.000 --> 00:58:27.000 So, the journey, the eight and a half year journey is still very 00:58:27.033 --> 00:58:29.367 real and raw because we just concluded it. 00:58:29.400 --> 00:58:30.733 And-- 00:58:30.767 --> 00:58:32.833 Rebecca: I know because you have like a little baby baby. 00:58:32.866 --> 00:58:35.700 How--what do you feel like was your biggest takeaway from 00:58:35.733 --> 00:58:37.034 that season? 00:58:37.067 --> 00:58:38.666 Like what do you feel like was the biggest thing you've learned 00:58:38.700 --> 00:58:40.000 going through that? 00:58:40.034 --> 00:58:41.966 Catherine: I think that the biggest thing is to never give 00:58:42.000 --> 00:58:46.166 up, but also that God is worthy regardless. 00:58:46.200 --> 00:58:49.533 And I think that's the biggest thing is like I'm going to love 00:58:49.567 --> 00:58:50.900 him regardless. 00:58:50.933 --> 00:58:54.333 I don't--he doesn't owe me anything and I think sometimes 00:58:54.367 --> 00:58:58.800 we feel entitled like, "Well you owe me this God," and you--he 00:58:58.833 --> 00:59:00.166 doesn't owe us anything. 00:59:00.200 --> 00:59:01.867 Rebecca: And I think sometimes we aren't even aware of our own 00:59:01.900 --> 00:59:05.367 entitlement until it gets like tested and then you're like, "Oh 00:59:05.400 --> 00:59:06.700 I'm entitled," you know. 00:59:06.734 --> 00:59:10.800 I think entitlement is big in the West, in the American church 00:59:10.833 --> 00:59:13.600 because we're fed the American dream and, you know, 00:59:13.633 --> 00:59:14.934 everyone's like-- 00:59:14.967 --> 00:59:17.200 And then it's like this--we're not living our lives based off 00:59:17.234 --> 00:59:18.534 of that. 00:59:18.567 --> 00:59:21.200 We're living our lives for his will and his plan, and you know. 00:59:21.233 --> 00:59:24.933 And so, I've had entitlement too and God's had to be like, "Deal 00:59:24.966 --> 00:59:26.267 with that." 00:59:26.300 --> 00:59:28.000 Catherine: I mean, I still--I'm sure I still struggle with it in 00:59:28.034 --> 00:59:29.567 different areas. 00:59:29.600 --> 00:59:32.266 We're becoming. We are getting there. 00:59:32.300 --> 00:59:34.967 Rebecca: Same. I'm a work in progress. 00:59:35.000 --> 00:59:36.333 I'll be work in progress till the day I die. 00:59:36.366 --> 00:59:39.300 But I think a huge thing is just like you said, I think you just 00:59:39.334 --> 00:59:42.500 have to give everything to him and hold everything loosely and 00:59:42.534 --> 00:59:45.700 understand it's all in his hands and we can't--we really don't 00:59:45.733 --> 00:59:49.666 have control and it's just--we just have to release and trust 00:59:49.700 --> 00:59:53.267 him and I think if we just stay humble, I think for me, 00:59:53.300 --> 00:59:56.867 humility, it's just been the easiest thing for me to hear the 00:59:56.900 --> 00:59:59.067 voice of the Lord if I just stay humble. 00:59:59.100 --> 01:00:00.767 He's just like right there and that's--it's a spiritual 01:00:00.800 --> 01:00:02.200 pra--it's a spiritual principle. 01:00:02.233 --> 01:00:06.334 It says, "God abases is the proud, but he lifts up the 01:00:06.367 --> 01:00:08.867 humble, and he draws close to the humble." 01:00:08.900 --> 01:00:11.033 And so, for me, I've just learned if I can just keep my 01:00:11.067 --> 01:00:13.700 head down and stay humble and just follow the Holy Spirit, I'm 01:00:13.734 --> 01:00:15.033 gonna be okay. 01:00:15.067 --> 01:00:16.400 Catherine: That's so good. 01:00:16.433 --> 01:00:17.734 Rebecca: Yeah, he's gonna take care of us. 01:00:17.767 --> 01:00:20.033 He's a good father and I think shifting into that understanding 01:00:20.066 --> 01:00:24.000 of like him being my dad really like changed my faith walk. 01:00:24.033 --> 01:00:26.467 And I think so many people relate to God like he's God and 01:00:26.500 --> 01:00:29.467 he's holy and yeah, he's all these things and I fear God. 01:00:29.500 --> 01:00:30.800 Like I really fear God. 01:00:30.834 --> 01:00:34.766 Like he is holy and I reverence him, but he's also my father. 01:00:34.800 --> 01:00:38.400 And so, I can draw close to him and he can be there for me in 01:00:38.433 --> 01:00:39.767 every season of life. 01:00:39.800 --> 01:00:42.800 And for me, it's like at the end of the day, you know, no one 01:00:42.833 --> 01:00:44.167 wants to struggle. 01:00:44.200 --> 01:00:45.500 No one wants to go through hard things. 01:00:45.533 --> 01:00:50.200 I know I don't, but I know that he has my life in his hands and 01:00:50.234 --> 01:00:52.834 nothing can ever separate me from him, and he walks with me 01:00:52.867 --> 01:00:56.334 through every valley, and he's my father and he's gonna--he's 01:00:56.367 --> 01:00:59.400 been with me through every season and he's faithful and 01:00:59.434 --> 01:01:00.800 he's worth it. 01:01:00.834 --> 01:01:02.700 You know, I remember one of the things the Lord told me when I 01:01:02.733 --> 01:01:04.633 was 18, had no idea where my life was going, you know. 01:01:04.666 --> 01:01:07.167 I look back on that I was like, "Man, when you called me, I 01:01:07.200 --> 01:01:09.567 didn't know all this was gonna happen." 01:01:09.600 --> 01:01:12.600 Oh, you know, but I remember one of the things he told me is he 01:01:12.633 --> 01:01:16.000 said, "The path is hard, but it's worth it." 01:01:16.034 --> 01:01:17.334 Catherine: So good. 01:01:17.367 --> 01:01:19.234 Rebecca: And I'm like, "You know what, I just want to run my race 01:01:19.267 --> 01:01:22.100 well, and I don't want to take stock in this life," which is 01:01:22.133 --> 01:01:23.466 hard for me. 01:01:23.500 --> 01:01:24.800 Sometimes I catch myself. 01:01:24.833 --> 01:01:26.166 I want to take stock in eternity. 01:01:26.200 --> 01:01:29.966 And then it's--there it'll be worth it. 01:01:30.000 --> 01:01:31.334 Catherine: It's a Rita Springer song. 01:01:31.367 --> 01:01:32.766 It's gonna be worth it all. 01:01:32.800 --> 01:01:34.966 Rebecca: I love that song. 01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:37.000 It's gonna be worth it all, and that's just such a 01:01:37.034 --> 01:01:38.333 beautiful word. 01:01:38.366 --> 01:01:41.333 Well, thank you so much for everything and just sharing your 01:01:41.366 --> 01:01:45.267 story and for that great message and, you know, come back and we 01:01:45.300 --> 01:01:47.966 can talk about other things, new updates. 01:01:48.000 --> 01:01:49.934 Catherine: Thank you for having me. 01:01:49.967 --> 01:01:52.900 I feel like we're new friends, and I love your heart and your 01:01:52.934 --> 01:01:57.433 message, and we need more people like you speaking truth. 01:01:57.466 --> 01:02:00.066 So, I just want to say keep it up and I'm cheering you on 01:02:00.100 --> 01:02:01.433 from Georgia. 01:02:01.466 --> 01:02:03.067 Rebecca: Thank you, and I'm cheering you on from Texas. 01:02:03.100 --> 01:02:04.467 Catherine: Thank you very much.