Rebecca: Hey guys, welcome back to the podcast.
I am here with Catherine Mullins Robbins.
Catherine: Well said.
Rebecca: A fellow third namer just like me.
Catherine: That's great.
We're working through it. I love it.
All the names.
Rebecca: All the names.
Catherine: It's a big mouthful, but we're thankful for it.
Rebecca: It's a solid name though.
I like it.
Okay, so you're awesome, by the way.
I've been getting to talk to Catherine off screen.
So, there's already like a good vibe here, but for anyone who
like doesn't know your story, give us some of your testimony.
Like, did you grow up in a Christian home?
How did you come to faith in Christ?
Catherine: Yeah, so I definitely grew up in a Christian home and
also I'm really excited to be talking to you today.
Rebecca: Aww, that's how I feel.
Catherine: Listen, I mean I feel like I found a new friend.
So, you have a great heart, good people, all the things, and I
just love it.
So my testimony, I did, I grew up in a good home.
My parents are amazing, my brothers are amazing.
The Lord was really faithful with that, and I feel like I
tell people I'm a product of a good environment and I think
it's really important today, you know, there's just so much
craziness in the world, but to tell people, "Hey, you can raise
your kids well and trust the Lord with their future," and
they don't have to know Egypt, they don't have to know the ways
of the world.
And so, that's really my testimony.
I used to be kind of embarrassed about it because people would
say, "Hey, do you want to do a podcast?"
And then they'd ask that question.
And I'd be like, "Well, I've loved Jesus my whole life," and
they're like, "Can you give us a little more details with that?"
And, you know, they were expecting to say, you know, for
me to say, " I came out of drug addiction," and yeah.
I had all these crazy things and I just didn't.
I've just always known the presence of the Lord and now
that I have a kid of my own, I'm just so thankful for that
testimony and I mean, I'm sure your prayer is as well, all of
our prayers is that that would be our children's testimonies.
Rebecca: Absolutely.
And you know for you, because, you know, there's one thing to
be raised in a Christian home.
Not only that, your parents were in ministry.
They were pastors.
Okay, so you're a pastor's kid.
So, you grow up in this environment of so much
Jesus, right?
But there's a difference between your parents's faith and
your faith.
When did it become your own?
Catherine: That's a really good question too.
When you have parents that are pouring into you, again, I was
so thankful that they really made that thought, put that
thought in my head at an early age.
Rebecca: It sounds like they really discipled you.
Catherine: Yeah, they did.
And they didn't make Christianity weird.
Rebecca: I know mine didn't either.
I'm so thankful for that.
Or religious, like they weren't religious.
Catherine: Absolutely.
Like they made ministry important and they made church
important and they made Christian community important.
And they taught me the value of that, but I also played sports
and I took voice lessons and just normal things growing up,
you know, and I did do a Christian--have Christian
education which I love, but I think it was just kind of a
process that they always told me is that, "Your relationship with
God is you and him.
And, you know, it's you approaching him and you getting
to know him.
And it's not our faith, it's your faith."
And, you know, there were different moments obviously when
you move out of the house that that becomes very real and
they--what kind of probably seems like big things at the
time, they're not necessarily big scenarios, but they teach us
to really depend on the Lord when we move out of the house.
And so, I had those moments along the way, but the Lord is
so gracious to become a best friend to us, you know, and to
lead us well.
Rebecca: But you know what, I feel like what you're saying
that's so important and for me I had to learn as an adult and
I've talked to so many people is that a lot of people aren't
taught how to have a relationship with God.
And so, you had that relationship with God from a
young age.
So, you had that foundation.
So, there wasn't this big transition where your parents's
faith became yours.
That you had ownership at such a young age that it was such a
natural progression versus a big shift.
With me, it was like I didn't know how to have a relationship
with God and I had to figure out in my adulthood.
And so, I'm so adamant.
So, like what you're saying with people's kids, like your
testimony can be their children's testimony.
That's what I want for my kids.
Like I want to teach them, and I want them to have a relationship
with God.
You don't need to go out into the world, you know, that is a
lot of people's testimony.
That doesn't have to be.
I think if someone is discipled well, I think you have a greater
chance of not having that happen to you.
Catherine: Absolutely.
Well, I even think with that, we can sometimes get very
religious, I think, or legalistic I should say, when we
talk about our relationship with the Lord and we don't mean to,
but it's like you need to read your Bible, you need to pray,
you need to--
And we check off these things, you know, off of our list and my
mom was always so good about putting it into perspective and
so was my dad about saying we pursue the Lord in a
relationship with him for the enjoyment of it.
And they said, obviously they're spiritual disciplines.
So, I mean, my mom, we in the morning read the Bible every
morning, a chapter and it was very simple.
It wasn't some long drawn out thing.
It was just, "We're going to read the Bible as a family
together while we're eating breakfast every morning."
Rebecca: I want to do that.
Catherine: It was great. It marked me.
I mean, I was like a little third grader still learning to
read kind of and I had my little part that I read out loud,
you know.
But they said, you know, "The Lord wants a relationship with
you and it's meant to be fun and not legalistic.
So, if you miss a day, don't feel bad about it.
That's not what the point of it is, it's to know God and to have
a relationship with him.
You know, friends don't get mad if you miss a day," you know.
And--well some friends do, but I don't know about those friends.
Just kidding, but yeah.
So, it was great how they taught the balance of discipline when
it comes to reading the Word, prayer, but also just not--it
not being too intense.
Rebecca: But it's a real breathing relationship, living
relationship, and a relationship with anyone is not a checklist.
Just a checklist. Thank God.
And it's not just one sided, it's not just you reading the
Bible on your own or you praying.
Prayer is conversational between us and God.
And so, for me like growing up, I didn't really I like reading
the Bible.
I didn't understand.
I just had Zach Windall on and he made a resource helping
people understand the Bible because I was like, you know,
growing up you'd be like, "What are these minor prophets
talking about?"
you know, or like the Gospels you're like, "What is the
historical context?" you know.
Catherine: What are the synoptic gospels?
Rebecca: Yeah, it's just like there, you know, there's this
huge, sometimes, bridge you have to cross.
And so, I'm thankful for people who make tools like that and I
didn't understand until we went to Bible school that the Holy
Spirit is living within us and he is the one who reveals God to
us through revelation.
And so, we ask, "Holy Spirit, teach me through
these scriptures."
And it's just not something that we're doing.
None of it we do on our own.
It's all relational and for me, that gives so much life because
it's not something I'm doing in my own strength, but it's rather
me understanding that we abide in him, that he is the source,
that we're branches in the vine.
And so, when I made that shift, Christianity went from being
this list because I literally saw it as a list of rules and I
was like, "I can't even keep this list of rules," to
understanding and God speaking to me when I was 17 at a
church camp.
He said, "Abide in me and I'll abide in you," where it's a
living relationship where he is the source that he is our source
of strength and wisdom and grace, and if we abide in him,
he will basically produce that fruit in us.
And he will also prune us, which is not fun.
Catherine: Painful but necessary.
Rebecca: Painful but necessary because he cares about us.
But yeah, it's a completely different thing and what a gift
that your parents gave out to you.
I know growing up with--in ministry can be hard, especially
I think as a PK, you know, because for me, I wasn't in a
church, so I wasn't in like I mean, I was in church, but I
wasn't the pastor's kid.
I was--like they were ministers.
I think when you're a pastor's kid, it's even can be sometimes
more intense because you're in this community.
Did you feel that way?
Catherine: Yes and no.
So, I definitely agree with that.
You know, people have opinions about everything.
They have opinions on how you need to be raised.
They have opinions on how you dress.
They have opinions about practically everything.
How you do what you're called to do.
You know, maybe she should take a break from worship.
All these thoughts and my parents were pretty firm in
saying, "Catherine, you don't need to listen to any of
those voices."
Rebecca: Oh, your parents are awesome.
Catherine: They are amazing and they just walked me through
that process.
They got stern a few times with some people and just said, "Hey,
that's not your place to speak into our daughter's life," you
know, but yeah, it's like we need strong leaders like that
who are willing to stand up and protect kids, you know, so yeah.
There were definitely some times where I felt the pressure, but
overarchingly again, good parents, to the best of their
abilities, they're going to shield and create a
safe environment.
That's not always the case because the world can be crazy,
but the Lord is so faithful with whatever I feel like families
are called to family units.
There's going to be a grace to walk that out together and we
experienced that.
Rebecca: I totally agree.
I do think there is a calling for each family and I think
there is a grace to operate in that calling.
I think that's why it's pivotal to walk in your calling, and I
know for you, there was a time where you were going to
pursue business.
Talk about that.
Catherine: So, the joke is, I probably wouldn't usually say
this in a podcast, but so I was gonna sell chicken to
the masses.
So, the whole point is Chick-fil-A, work at their
corporate office because--
Rebecca: The Lord's chicken.
Catherine: It's the Lord's chicken.
And in Georgia, basically you're not saved if you haven't worked
at Chick-fil-A as a teenager.
Rebecca: That is hilarious.
Catherine: So, that's was my business thing and if you went
into the business world and they ask you what you're called to
do, to say, "Hey, I feel called to sing," they're like, "Oh,
that's cute," you know, what does that even mean?
There was no context for that.
So, I was going to do business.
Again, it's a great company to work for and work at their
corporate office.
And the Lord really just--and the reason I wanted to do that
is I didn't really want to do ministry because I've seen all
the different battles my parents had faced and just the things
that people say and do and they just loved people so well, but
it was hard.
It was hard.
Rebecca: It's a hard calling.
Catherine: Yes, it really is and there's a grace for it, but
it's intense.
And Paul the Apostle, we can see in his life how hard it was.
Peter, you know, the apostle, there's just--it was--it's
intense sometimes to work in church settings, but
very rewarding.
So, I just was going to do the business route and I just told
the Lord, "If you want me to do ministry, you're just going to
have to make it very clear because obviously I want to
follow you with whatever I do, but you're just gonna have to
make this very clear," and he did.
And so, I had a moment where, again, I would think it was my
third year in college, organizational leadership.
And there was an event that basically happened in Florida
and it ended up blowing up and like 10,000 people came and God
TV hosted it.
And so, I ended up leading worship there at that event and
it ended up launching me into full-time ministry overnight.
And so, I went from background vocals, but they did extended
meetings and so that ended up--they just needed a
worship leader.
I probably was not even--I was probably like the fifth pick,
you know.
They were just--
Rebecca: But it was like that extended worship and so they use
people to step in.
Catherine: So, they're like we'll throw Catherine out there
and it ended up working out.
Rebecca: How did you feel in that moment?
Catherine: You know, okay, this is the thing about leading
worship in front of a lot of people because before that, it
had been a very small crowd and I had no open doors except the,
you know, the local church.
But worship leading, if you can lead worship in front of 50
people, you can lead worship in front of 5000 people.
It's the same thing.
When you learn to follow the flow of the spirit, it's the
same because when you learn to hear his voice for 50 people,
you can hear his voice for 5000 people.
It's the same voice that talks to you, you know, and you just
get to know him.
And he can lead and guide and direct, but it was definitely, I
feel, like a God thing, which is we're all waiting for that
moment of calling and just saying, "Okay, Lord, I trust
you," and when we do, it's amazing how he can open
the doors.
Rebecca: And so, from that moment it was kind of like your
open door that led to other open doors.
Catherine: Yes, definitely.
Rebecca: And so, you started--did you start doing
worship leading?
Did you do teaching as well or how did that come about?
Catherine: Teaching was something that I was very
nervous about, and it's just a different, different
world and--
Rebecca: They're completely different.
Catherine: They are.
Rebecca: And a lot of times worship leaders don't always
teach, you know.
Some do, but not everyone because they are very different.
Catherine: Yes, and I always would look at speakers or
even podcasters.
I'm amazed.
Like you guys are just so brilliant with your speech and
the questions you ask.
Rebecca: I think it's funny because I was hearing you teach
and I was like, "Man, she is just so good," and that's like a
gifting thing, you know, and you have to steward it, but not
everyone has that.
So, it's funny because I was thinking that about you.
Catherine: Well I feel that about you.
Look at us supporting each other.
Rebecca: Women supporting women.
Catherine: Yeah, but it was really kind of scary for me to
step out into that because it was so new and I think worship
leaders sometimes think like pastors, I think, think, "I only
have 15, 20 minutes to talk, you know, how am I going to fit
everything in?"
Worship leaders think, "How am I going to fill up something for
15 minutes?"
Rebecca: Yeah, that's a long time.
Catherine: Yeah, so it was probably a few years into it and
it was the typical, "Hey, teach on worship," and then somewhere
along the way, I, with that, I just kind of started getting a
heart for the church and a heart to deal with specific
topics, etc.
and I just started refining those messages behind the scenes
and wrestling with those messages behind the scenes with
the Lord and the word.
And then I would just take different opportunities that
came my way.
Rebecca: You know what though, like some of my favorite
teachers are worship leaders.
Like I took a class in Bible school that was by a worship
leader and it was actually "What Is Worship," and it changed
my life.
And I just think worship leaders can have such a heart and a
perspective that comes across in the teaching, even the Bible
school I went to with Jack Hayford, he helped start a
worship movement within the church, so there is something
special there when those things combine.
So, I just love that.
But yeah, that must have been scary kind of transitioning.
So, you were doing worship leading and now you do both, and
now you pastor?
Catherine: Yes. Rebecca: Okay, talk about that.
Catherine: So, I--if you would have told me that we were going
to be pastoring my dad's church, I would have said, "I don't see
that in the cards.
I don't think that's gonna happen."
Rebecca: So, you never, growing up, you never were like, "One
day maybe--"
Catherine: I never even thought about it.
I don't know why.
And then I was--I had moved away to Hamilton, Alabama and we live
in Georgia now and we pastor church Coweta Community Church
in Noonan, Georgia and in Alabama.
I thought I was just going to be there for a long time.
It's Karen Wheaton, the Ramp.
They're our second family, home away from home.
We still do basically all of their events and conferences.
But somewhere along the way, my husband and I got married and
our hearts just kind of started to look to home again.
And instead of really dreaming about travel ministry as much, I
started falling asleep thinking about my dad's church and I
didn't even know why.
It was just kind of like, "I wonder what they're doing?"
And then, really there's a transition happening just
because of the age that we're in and the boomers are starting to
get older and starting to retire.
So, really the church is in a transition phase and a lot of
churches are.
And so, I was seeing different churches and they were talking
through their transition plans and I was even seeing some of
the tension that comes with it.
Rebecca: Transition is hard and a lot of times it's not handled
very well.
Catherine: It's true.
Rebecca: And so, to see a good transition I think is so good
for people to witness because there is a way that you
can--because ministry, it's so interesting like when I first
got called, like I just thought about like my calling.
Now I think about legacy and you're probably thinking that
too because here you're picking up the baton from your parents,
and they're probably thinking about your own kids, your son.
And so, yeah, it's totally different, but transition
is hard.
Catherine: It is.
And I mean, nobody really likes transition.
It can be scary.
I say that nobody--I feel like, and Jeremiah Johnson says this,
there's pioneers and then there's settlers.
Rebecca: That's true.
Catherine: And we need both, you know.
The settlers calm down the pioneers where they need to be
calmed down.
The pioneers grab the settlers and say, "Let's keep going,"
you know.
Rebecca: The pioneers are the trailblazers and there are
people who like there's a guy who came through here and that's
like--that's something that that's all they do and they
blaze trails and they start things and then they hand it off
and then like these amazing churches and ministries, you
know, and then some people they steward and they stay there and
they settle like the settlers.
That's it.
Catherine: And so, I think, you know, we didn't expect that to
be our story and then all of a sudden, I just couldn't stop
thinking about it.
My husband was thinking about it, so there's that
alignment, 100%.
And we said, "Well, we need to talk to somebody about this.
We need some older person's advice, wisdom."
And so, we went over to one of the elder's houses.
We hadn't even told my parents yet because I wanted--we wanted
to get our ducks in a row first, you know, to make sure we'd
heard from the Lord.
And we told this guy, Dr. Randy.
I said, "Hey, I think we're called to take my dad's church."
And he said, "You know, I told my wife Kimmy, I told her that
you guys were coming over and I felt like you were going to tell
us that tonight."
And we need the older generation and their wisdom and their
ability to hear from the Lord.
And so, that really was just like a, you know, a
solidification for us that we're hearing from God and going in
the right direction.
And so, we told my dad and, you know, submitted it to him and he
prayed about it and he felt like it was--and he brought it before
the elders.
We brought it and presented it to the elders of the church and
they unanimously agreed.
Rebecca: That's huge. Catherine: Which is amazing.
And yeah, so it's just been, I mean now I say that that was a
bit of like the rainbow glass version of it.
It still was hard, you know, because people love my dad and
we're not my dad, you know?
Rebecca: No you're not.
Catherine: And it talks about, you know, you can't put new wine
skin in an old wine skin.
And so, you can't put new wine in an old wine skin and I think,
not to go there, but a lot of churches, that's where we're at
right now is God is pouring out something new and there's a
place for the older generation, but there is a passing of the
baton, and it's beautiful, but it's also hard and we're all
learning to do it together.
Rebecca: That's so funny.
I was just talking to someone about this very thing, how
people can get so caught up with the way God has moved or the way
they did things and they can get stuck if they don't allow
themselves to keep continuing to follow where the spirit is
leading us in that new direction.
That we can get stuck in tradition.
And we can't, even though we might not understand a new
movement or a new direction, we have to trust God and follow him
and not get so familiar with our ways of doing things or our
systems because we're not married to a system, we're
married to Jesus and we're following him.
You know, but I think we just get comfortable with the way
things are, but I mean, God is on the move and he's expanding
the kingdom, and we got to keep walking in step with him and not
be so tied to the way things are because like you said, you know,
you can't put new wine in an old wine skin.
And it's interesting because I--when I was interviewing this
guy named Dale Mast, he was--he does a book on the life of King
David, and he talks about just that crazy journey that David
had to go through to get king.
But then once he became king, how it took him seven years to
win over the tribe of Benjamin, the house of Saul, because of
what happened with Saul.
But yet, David led in kindness, and he was kind to them.
And in time, they fell in line with him and supported him
as king.
And so, sometimes he's like, even when you're in that
position, there are going to be people who maybe resist you and
you have to choose to lead in kindness.
And, you know, in time when people over because some people
they don't want things to change, because change is hard
for people.
Catherine: I think that's a great word and it's funny I was
telling my husband because I'm a justice girl.
Like I'm a right, wrong, black and white.
And I want to, you know, stand up for the people who, you know,
aren't being treated well, etc.
And one of the biggest things when we stepped into the
pastoral position was I feel like the Lord put a muzzle on my
mouth in a good way, and he just said, "You can't talk
like that."
And it wasn't like I was trying to be unkind, but I just, you
know, I wanted justice.
I want things to be set to right and the pastoral heart is being
kind to people--
Rebecca: It's the shepherd. Catherine: It really is.
It's gently guiding them and--
Rebecca: Gently with the staff, not beating them with the stuff.
Catherine: And I think that's really probably a lesson for all
of us because, you know, we're all growing, having grace with
each other, you know.
What kind of grace do I want someone to have with me and
my process?
And then extending that same grace and it's really the
golden rule.
I mean, you know, we did a--I did a class on ethics in college
and it all boiled down to treat others how you want to
be treated.
It's the golden standard, you know, but that's the treating
people with kindness is such a big deal in today's culture.
It's almost like kindness in some instances has
been forgotten.
And the Lord's bringing that back in many ways.
Rebecca: Yeah, I totally agree.
And you know, I'm so thankful like even for me because I think
when you are younger, you have all this passion and like you
have this energy which is so great and that was actually--I
was--we were talking to Joseph Z about that where it's like the
older generation has wisdom and they need the strength of the
younger generation.
And so many times there's that disconnect, but we really need
each other, but the younger generation needs the guidance,
you know.
And so, they work together.
And so, with me, I feel like God teaching me like, you know, you
want things to be set right and you have good intentions, you
know, but if you have to do things God's way and in his
timing, and you have to use wisdom and you have to, you
know, when you are being put under someone in leadership, you
have to serve that vision.
And I think so many people have their vision and they know what
God's called them to do and they want to live out their vision,
but I think God wants to test first, can you serve another
man's vision?
Catherine: That's, I mean, that all right there is such a big
word and I was talking to somebody recently because as you
know, when you're called and you're young and you're called
to something--
Rebecca: You have all this passion.
Catherine: You have the passion and it's unbridled.
Rebecca: Not as much wisdom.
Catherine: You don't know how to handle it, and I think the Lord
plans it like that where it's like you need that passion to
push you forward and into your calling, but there's like this
gap where it happened with David in the Bible where he's anointed
king and then he goes back to the field.
There's this timing where it's like this is what I'm called to
and it's like we're so passionate about what we're
called to, but there's this waiting season where God is
training us.
And in that season, we are usually called to serve somebody
else's vision.
And the question is, can we serve with the right heart?
Can we walk in humility?
And so much of our character is being built in that time of
we've been called.
Now here's the gap, and now you're eventually going to be
able to step into what you're called to do, but it's like
there's so much--it's like a floodgate that, you know, that
we're trying to kind of hold back, but it's God's process is
usually we get a word and then it's going to be a season of
walking it out until the fulfilled promise comes to pass.
Rebecca: It's so true because God in his mercy wants to get
our hearts in the right place before we walk into ministry.
And I think for some people, they have that vision and
they're following the Lord and then they're in this season of
pruning and testing and they're thinking, "God, what is this?
This is not what I thought I signed up for," but we have to
trust him that he's bringing us through that process, and we
have to trust him, you know.
Can, you know, why are you doing ministry?
Are you doing this for you? Are you doing this for me?
You know.
Do what people think about you, does that really matter?
You know, that has to be broken off because I'm gonna call you
to do things that people are gonna judge you for it,
you know.
And so, there's so much process that God brings us through, but
in his mercy so that when we step into our calling, it
doesn't overtake us or doesn't lead us, you know.
That he is the one, he is the prize basically.
And we don't let ministry become the prize.
And so, I think that pruning is so important and I think you
have all that passion, but you need wisdom and I think about
the people in my life, thank God, who spoke wisdom to me in
intense passionate moments and had wisdom and I listened and it
was really humbling for me because I realized that you can
be passionate and you can have good intentions, but if you are
not--if you need to clearly hear from the Lord and you need to
have wisdom because if not, those things, passion and good
intentions, can take you in the completely wrong direction and
you could blow up your life.
And I think people--I think the closer you are to stepping into
your destiny, I think the harder and more tempting it is to try
to make it happen in your own strength.
And I think that's where so many people get caught.
Catherine: Well you just said two very important things.
I feel like you said um humble, humility and you said
you listened.
And those are two things that I think sometimes we don't realize
really do go hand in hand.
We come in, we have these great ideas.
I was talking to somebody recently, we were talking about
all our supposed great ideas in our twenties, and some of them
were good ideas, but she said, "Man, Catherine, if those older
leaders that had told us no had said yes to us in that season,"
she said, "we would have wrecked everything."
And you don't really realize that until you get a little bit
older, and you think, "Oh, they were actually preserving us and
they were preserving other people."
And I think what you just said is you had the humility enough
to listen.
And that is a little bit of what I think there's been a
disconnect in our age group and younger is we think we know
best, which everyone at that age thinks they know best.
I mean, we're still probably--I still have to fight that, you
know, I think I know best in different scenarios, but you
made the decision to honor and serve a vision and to submit to
that and you listened to wisdom.
And that's where I'm just like, you know, there's some
non-negotiables in my husband's and I--in our life that, you
know, if my dad, who's kind of our apostolic covering, if he
says, you know, no to something, we listen to that and it's a
pretty hard no.
You know, not everybody has that place in our lives, but the
wisdom of the older generation, what you said, is such a huge
deal, and I feel like if we could get on the same page where
the older generation respects the passion of the young and
gives them a voice and we listen, again like you said, to
the wisdom of the older generation, I feel like the
church could be unstoppable in many ways.
Rebecca: Oh, I completely agree.
I, you know, I think the enemy, he's just trying to stir up
division because if we're divided, that we're the
least effective.
We are one body, so imagine separating from itself, you
can't even function properly.
You know, in the Bible says in Ephesians, it's like keep the
bond of peace, of unity within the body and that's the thing
that's being attacked and I think so many--I think the enemy
loves to use Christians who have real hurt.
I think he hops into that wounding and people lash out in
their hurts and I don't even think--I think most people have
good intentions.
I think a lot of people lack biblical teaching, they
lack wisdom.
They have good intentions, and he's misappropriating that, and
I hate to see that because I'm like, "It's not that your
intentions are good," and I think about like Moses in
the Bible.
Like his intentions were good when he killed the Egyptian, but
it wasn't the right way to handle it.
And he'd have to go out to the desert for 40 years, and God
would restore him back and he would lead him to bring the
Jewish people out of slavery in Egypt.
So, he had that passion.
It was just misappropriate.
I think about Peter, he loved Jesus, but he cut off the air of
the guy, misappropriated path and Jesus is like, "Oh, Peter,
you live by the sword, you died by the sword.
This isn't the way to handle it," you know.
And you have an amazing, I mean, you should share some of that on
Peter because that was like mind blowing.
Catherine: I agree with you on this thought of misplaced
justice or even mis--I call it misplaced compassion too because
it's somebody who's responding out of a place of trauma and
hurt, and so they want other people to not have to deal with
that, or they want to stand up for other people, but we have to
get back to exactly what you said, back to how the Bible
calls us to handle specific issues.
And so, instead of going from a cultural lens and what is
culturally appropriate, we have to say, "What does the Bible
say, my conduct, our conduct should be concerning the
situation," and then you really hit it that people don't know
the Bible anymore.
And it's interesting to me because you don't know what you
don't know.
And so, if you're getting the majority of your Bible and
theology from social media from these little squares, we always
say that's part of the story, that's not the full story.
There's no way you're going to know the full story.
And I think that's where we're at right now is even though we
have a ton of Bibles circulating in the world, we're living in a
very biblically illiterate time.
Rebecca: We are.
Catherine: But the thing that's crazy is people don't realize
that because they own a Bible but they haven't been reading
the Bible.
Rebecca: I think people are really going off of how they
feel, and I think people feel justified in being hateful.
But there's no biblical justification for it.
Just because you think, which I mean you don't even know
sometimes if someone's actually done wrong, you're just
judging them.
But even if someone does wrong, that isn't justifying you in
being wrong yourself and being hateful.
Catherine: Well, and that's the thing that's crazy is a lot of
times when it comes to offense, if somebody did wrong to you or
it was a perceived wrong, we still handle it the same way and
that's what's biblically we're called to handle it the same
way, you know, and it talks about it in the Bible and this
is--I'm not talking about these huge issues because I think even
more just at a personal level of community standard level of, you
know, just friendships and whatnot, we've gotten so
nitpicky these days.
I feel like where it's just, you know, give somebody a break, you
know, give somebody the benefit of the doubt.
There's a verse in Proverbs and I'm going to paraphrase it, but
it says, "Hold on, there may be a very good explanation for what
you just saw."
And I think sometimes we tend exactly what you said because of
our past trauma, we jump to conclusion--
Rebecca: Believe the worst without having any facts.
Catherine: Absolutely.
And then we say, "Well, I feel," well, facts and feelings, you
know, it's the facts don't care about your feelings.
I think Charlie Kirk says that, but that's the reality of it,
and you can say that you feel that way, and we have a saying
in our house, my husband and I, that we say, "This is not
reality," and it's a kind of a pause moment for us to recenter
if we're feeling a certain way and it's not truth.
You know, I'm feeling this way, but that's not reality,
you know.
And so, when it comes to Peter, let me just go ahead and pull
out the notes because I wanna get this right.
Okay, so I love Peter. I feel like--
Rebecca: I do too. I've always loved him.
Relatable.
Catherine: Yes, that's how I feel.
I'm like if I identify with anybody and it's unfortunate,
but I identify with Peter.
I would be the hothead accidentally cutting somebody's
ear off and be like, "I'm so sorry.
I was trying to do the right thing," you know, because he was
trying to do the right thing.
Rebecca: He was. He was being protective.
Catherine: Yeah, he had good intentions.
So, the stage here is that Jesus has just prophesized his death,
what's about to happen to his closest of his friends.
He's telling them, "Hey, I'm about to go to the cross, die,
and I'm going to come back to life."
And for whatever reason, they still just don't get it.
And so he just prophesized that, and this is Peter's response in
Matthew 16:22 says that, "Peter took him aside and began to
reprimand him," he's reprimanding Jesus, which is
very gutsy.
He's reprimanding him for saying such things, and Peter says,
"Heaven forbid, Lord, this will never happen to you."
And so, Jesus responds in verse 23.
He turns to Peter and says, "Get away from me, Satan.
You are a dangerous trap to me.
You're seeing things merely from a human point of view, not from
God's point of view."
So, I'm looking at this and I'm thinking, "Man, I would hate for
Jesus to have to tell me that," and I'm pretty sure in some
instances, he's kind of told me that in a kinder way.
Like, "Just stop, Catherine.
You're not doing the right thing."
But the premise here is that there was a lot of
relational tension.
Like this was a tense moment in their friendship.
And Peter had really good intentions.
He wasn't coming against Jesus saying, "Man, I don't like you,
and so I'm just out to just really mess up what you're--what
you've been put on the earth to do."
It wasn't that at all.
He had good intentions, he deeply loved Jesus, and it was
actually his love that was compelling him to confront and
come against Jesus.
And so, what that tells me, and I feel like this is where we're
at many times in society is people have very good
intentions, is what that tells me is I can have good intentions
and becoming against somebody, but I can still be
entirely wrong.
And that's a very hard word because we don't want to tell
people that.
We don't say, "Hey, that's actually not the truth.
Hey, that's actually incorrect."
And so, at this moment in Peter's life, Jesus hits it head
on and he says, "Get behind me, Satan."
What he's saying is Satan or what he's saying is, "Peter,
you're not operating in the right spirit."
And so, scholars connect this moment in Peter's life with the
very same spirit that actually tempted Jesus in the desert.
And so, we have somebody, Peter walked with Jesus.
I mean this is not questioning, "Is this person a Christian?"
You know.
This is not questioning, "Does this person know Jesus or not?"
And even in the midst of all of that, Peter opposed what God was
wanting to do.
And he literally was coming in a wrong spirit.
And so, that makes me think--
Rebecca: As a trap.
Catherine: Yeah, it was a trap and it was literally a trap to
derail God's plan for what was going on.
And so, I have to ask the question, if Peter could walk
daily with Jesus and literally be his best friend on the earth,
how much more do I need to be careful when I'm criticizing
something that I don't understand and I don't have all
the facts on?
And that's where we're at right now I feel like in life.
And again, I get people's intention.
And I wanna say this too, I fully believe in calling
out sin.
That's not what I'm saying.
I think if there is a leader, a public leader who is in public
unrepentant sin, he needs to be publicly called out and that's
actually biblical, but there's a way to do that.
And unfortunately, we're living in a society where people feel
empowered by social media to judge people before they have
all of the facts and it really--it clearly tells us in
the Bible to not be somebody who judged.
How we judge we're going to be judged, you know.
But I think this is just a prime example that Peter had this
moment where he could have been the supporter and the encourager
and instead, he was the criticizer and he was the person
who judged, he was the person who wanted to control
the situation.
And I just think, "Man, how many times do we do that with
situations that we don't know?
How many times do we try to stick our nose?"
I don't mean it in a mean way, but stick our nose in other
people's business when it's not our business.
And the Bible clearly tells us that gossip is like these
amazing morsels of food and they go deep into our inner parts,
you know, and it's like choices morsels.
That's what it says.
We need to get a better translation like the message
paraphrase or something like that for that.
But the point of it is, is gossip goes deep down into
our hearts--
Rebecca: It spreads quickly. Catherine: It does.
"Leaven is the whole loaf," it says.
And so, it's like how are we treating people in this season?
And how are we talking about them behind closed doors and on
social media, and are we making feelings based assumptions?
And because however much I feel like maybe this is truth or this
is not true, whatever it is, that doesn't matter.
Facts matter.
And according to the Bible and biblical justice, facts matter.
And we don't talk about that all the time.
And we kind of become these justice vigilantes, and it's not
the biblical way of handling disagreements.
Rebecca: No. Yeah, that's so good.
Yeah, I remember my father-in-law, he told me a
story where he likens it to like when someone spreads false
reports about people, it's like there--it's like a story from a
Rabbi, but he says it's like going up to a roof and slicing
open a pillow, and all the feathers go out all over the
town, and he's like that's trying to now
pick up all the feathers.
Well, it's already spread.
You can't put them all back in, it's already out.
And so, the damage that you do, you know, it's just--it's kind
of irreversible.
You can't fully gather it all back.
And so, we just have to be so mindful and we need to be so
careful about how we handle things and how we handle
situations because, you know, these are people's lives and,
you know, we need to be doing things in a way where we have
wisdom and we have facts and we're doing things in love and
we're doing things the way that God says.
And I think a lot of people because they don't understand
the Word, they're doing things, like you said, from a good
place, but it's just not the right way.
Catherine: Absolutely.
And even understanding too, and I'm not talking about sin
issues, but the church is allowed to have disagreements
amongst each other, you know.
We're supposed to agree on primary doctrine, essential
doctrine, all that really matters, but after that, I think
sometimes we tend to get so intense about our opinion and
our way and what we want, and we forget the way of love, and we
forget that, yeah, your opinion matters and your theological
view on a secondary issue, not a heaven or hell issue, not a
primary issue that's important that you believe that way, but
you know it's more important?
Unity.
You know what is more important? Love.
What is more important?
The fruits of the spirit, kindness.
And I think I've been in a place with that where it's like, you
know, how do I treat people that I don't agree with in the body
of Christ and does God care about that?
And at least according to Scripture, he really, really
cares, and he cares way more about kindness and unity instead
of me having to prove that I'm right and prove a point.
Rebecca: Totally.
I mean, and I think--I just wish everyone could just learn to
take personal responsibility, like radical personal
responsibility for themselves, what they say, how they treat
people, because if all of us could stop focusing on others
and start focusing on how we handle ourselves in situations,
we would all be better off, you know.
But if you're just so busy judging someone else, you're not
taking any ownership over how you're acting.
It's a good distraction.
And so, I think that's why a lot of people like judging because
it's like it takes the focus off of maybe your own shortcomings
and I think it's more important to take ownership of yourself
first, especially before you go out for someone else.
You know, what do you think the proper way--what is the proper
way for the body of Christ to handle calling out sin?
Like what is the right way?
Catherine: Yeah, I think that is a very, very good question.
There's multiple, you know, there's obviously--in Matthew,
it talks about going to that person first and foremost.
Yeah, I think that could--you could avoid a lot of error.
Now there are times obviously, again, a public leader, this is
my personal interpretation of it.
The public leaders in public sin, they need to be publicly
called out because they've hurt a lot of people, you know, and
it does need to be dealt with.
But that's not for just every single person to call out
the sin.
That's for their leaders to handle the situation.
I believe our response as the people of God is to love and
to cover.
Love covers a multitude of sin.
And I think a lot of times, you know, we again, we don't want
people to be hurt.
We're just people.
I understand that, but there are protocols in the kingdom.
And I think sometimes we take on burdens that we weren't meant to
take on and yeah, this person might have hurt so and so, but
the question is, are these leaders handling it?
Then let the leaders handle it and let's just go about
our lives.
We don't have to make a big show of this.
We don't have to post our opinion of it on social media.
Rebecca: And it doesn't do any good when you go against
these protocols.
You're just causing more damage and that's why, you know, the
enemy is having a heyday in the church because, you know, people
get in their feelings, and they lash out and they don't even
realize that what they're doing isn't biblical, you know, and
they feel justified in doing it and it just becomes a big mess.
Catherine: Well then, I think a lot of times too, so let's take
out the big sin issues because even with the big sin issues,
for the most part, there are a lot of really good churches,
there are a lot of good pastors that aren't doing crazy things
behind the scenes, they're loving their church as well.
It's just the media has really focused in on some bigger
issues, you know.
So, let's take the bigger issues because most people are just
living life and they're having to deal with maybe smaller
issues just in friend groups, and they're having to deal with
differences of opinions that just kind of cause friction in
the body of Christ.
And I think the first thing is to recognize that God put us in
a family for a reason.
And that means that he put us with people, not necessarily
people that we agree with on everything, but people that are
going to sharpen us.
It says iron sharpens iron.
So, we have to expect that when we have people coming from all
different backgrounds that there's gonna be some tension
there like I don't, you know, I don't believe that, you know, I
need to raise my kids that way and you believe you need to
raise your kids that way, you know.
It can be little things.
I'm shocked at how intense people get about, "Did you have
an epidural?
Did you not have an epidural?
Do you believe in birth control?
Do you not believe in birth control?"
I'm like, "Whoa, is that really what we're gonna fight about in
the body of Christ right now?"
You know?
But it's at a level of recognizing, okay, the iron, the
friction that's happening right now is actually making me--if I
press into this right and I walk in forgiveness and humility and
kindness, this friction is actually going to grow my
character and make me a better person.
So, it's not a bad thing.
It's like embrace that moment, embrace the friction, you know.
But then also, I think we're quick to cut off people when we
don't see eye to eye.
Rebecca: Especially today.
I feel like that's a lot of the way people have been told to
handle things and I really do think that God, we are a family
and community, and I think family isn't always,
you know, you're not always gonna
100% agree, but can you still show up and love
one another, you know, even with disagreements and I think that
is the kind of love and grace.
I'm not saying tolerate everything, but I'm saying that
over stuff like that where it can be worked out, let's try to
work it out, you know.
Let's try, you know, let's not immediately cut the other person
off because we were designed for community and I would even say
to people, and this is what gives me peace, is that if you
see someone and you're like, "I don't know what's going on, but
I think maybe there's something going on with this person and
something isn't right," I would just encourage the believer this
gives me peace about situations is that God sees everything and
he misses nothing.
And it says in Corinthians, "We will all stand before God and
be judged."
Like God is the judge and he will judge all of
us accordingly.
And even people who did good things, he will test the
motivations behind it.
And the Bible says that it will be tested through fire.
And that if it is like wheat or grass, it will not last, but if
it's gold, you know, something strong, it will last through
the fire.
And so, I know that God is going to set everything right.
And so, we can be at peace and not carry that burden because
that's not the burden he wants us to carry.
Catherine: That's it. I love that.
I think that's so good.
It's that reality that what's done in dark will be brought
to light.
Rebecca: It will, it always does.
It always does.
Catherine: And then we've got, you know, verses in the Bible
that it says that Jesus was silent before his accusers.
And this is Peter the hothead saying this.
This is his eventual conclusion of life.
He's older at this point and he says, you know, think of Jesus,
you know, and he said he was 100% silent before his accusers.
That's amazing to me.
And I think one of the things too with it in Philippians, Paul
the Apostle talks about it, he talks about his own journey and
he says, you know, "I've not arrived," he said, "but I
press on."
This is a Catherine paraphrase.
He says, "I press on to the mark."
And then he says it again, "Again, me, Paul the Apostle, I
haven't arrived," so it's recognizing that we're all
growing together.
We're on a journey.
And then he says this--he says, "And all whom are mature should
take on this stance of recognizing we haven't arrived."
So, that means that there could be things in our character that
are wrong, there are things that in our character that God wants
to correct and grow us in.
And then I love this.
He says, "And if you disagree on something, perhaps the Holy
Spirit will make it clear."
And I remember reading that and thinking, "Okay, I need to go a
little bit deeper with this.
What does this mean?"
If you disagree on something, perhaps the Holy Spirit will
make it clear.
And so, I was starting to read commentaries and different
opinions on it.
And what that verse is saying is, don't focus, as a church,
don't focus on what you don't agree on.
Focus on what you can agree on.
Rebecca: That's a good word.
Catherine: And so again, it's--and I'm not saying I'm
not--we have to be in agreement on primary doctrine on the big
issues on sin and all that kind of stuff, but that's not a lot
of times what trip people up in everyday life.
It's these little petty things that we want to change people.
And he says, "Hey, If you don't agree, perhaps maybe leave it up
to the Holy Spirit to handle."
And he said, "So don't even focus on that.
So get your eyes literally make it where your brain is creating
a new neurological pathway where you stop thinking about that.
You gonna have to blaze a new trail of thought and think on
the things that you guys agree on in this season."
So, now I don't have to be my brother's keeper in the sense of
like we have to be on the same page of all this.
That's up to the Holy Spirit.
I'm on my own journey trying to get the plank out of my eye.
I don't have to look at the spec in theirs, you know.
And in doing that, I have a piece and I've taken off a
burden that I never was meant to carry.
And I don't have to sever relationship on issues that
are secondary.
Does that make sense?
Rebecca: Oh, it makes total sense and it's understanding
that like the Holy Spirit is the convictor and he will do
his job.
Catherine: Excellent at it. Rebecca: Yeah, he's much better.
It's like we need to know what God's job is and what his
responsibility and what our role is.
And I think if we could just get that straight, we would--for me
that's how I have found peace is understanding like Jesus said,
"My yoke is easy, my burden is light."
And so, so many people are putting burdens on themselves
that God never asked to burden themselves with.
So, I just think that's such wisdom.
Well, I know we're almost out of time, but I really want to talk
to you about your journey--your fertility journey with having
your baby.
So, tell us.
You and your husband get married and you start trying to have
kids and what ends up happening?
Catherine: So, if you would have told me that I would have been
somebody who was going to struggle with fertility, you
know, younger Catherine, I would have said that's never going
to happen.
I'm healthy.
It's just that wasn't even in my thought process and all of a
sudden, I'm expecting to be pregnant and I'm not
getting pregnant.
And so, a while into it, we finally decided I need to go to
the doctor just to see, just, you know, if there's something
that I can fix, we can fix naturally and they couldn't find
anything wrong and it was really heartbreaking because I hadn't
really dissected my dreams until I came to this moment, you know,
and I realized out of anything, I wanted to be a mom.
That was, I mean, I love leading worship, I enjoy speaking, I'm
very thankful for those things, but at the core of Catherine, my
heart's desire was to always be a mom.
And to see all of my friends around me--
Rebecca: Yeah, because they're all having kids.
Catherine: All having babies.
Baby showers were the hardest to go to, you know.
It just was like a punch in the gut every time trying not to
cry, and it wasn't that I was upset other people were getting
their miracle.
I was really happy about that, but I also wanted my miracle.
Rebecca: But it just made you think each time like, "Is it
going to happen for me?"
Well, how did you reconcile that with the Lord?
Like did it affect your relationship with him?
Were you disappointed?
Catherine: So, I mean, I had some frank conversations and I'm
so grateful for the kindness of the Lord and I don't know why I
asked this one day that I said, "Lord, are you mad at me?
Like, are we okay?"
Rebecca: But can we just normalize how important that is
to have those kind of conversations with God?
Because if you don't have these kind of conversations, I think a
wall can almost be formed between you and the Lord because
you're not getting those big questions out of the way.
Catherine: And he knows that we're thinking it anyways.
So, it's like why don't just we can be honest with it.
I just said, "Lord, are you mad at me?"
And I just said--I said, "I see all of these people," and I
said, "and I'm just frustrated," you know.
And I remember even telling him, "I sing a song that says you
have never lost a battle," and I said, "and I believe that in my
head, but I really need to get it in my heart," you know, and I
said, "because I'm struggling here because right here, the
battle is--you're not winning.
I'm not seeing a win here," you know.
And I think for me, I wrestled with it and got a promise and I
just--the piece that I had was keep on believing, but I
remember reading the Hall of Faith in Hebrews and it's
talking about Abraham I believe and it says that he actually
believed--basically, he died believing the promise, but he
actually didn't lay a hold of it.
He saw it from afar off.
And I paused and I said, "Wait a second," because in the
charismatic faith, we always talk, "It's going to happen,
period," which that's good faith to have and that's good language
to have and I still talk like that, you know, because I have
faith, but the reality is, is what are you going to do if it
never happens?
Rebecca: Yeah, it actually says there's a group of people that
never the fulfillment of the promises made to them on
the earth.
Yeah, it's crazy.
Catherine: And they made it and they made it into
the Hall of Faith.
That's the thing. So--
Rebecca: Because they believed. Catherine: They believed.
And so--and it was credited to them as righteousness.
And so, I just kind of solidified in my heart again,
looking to the older generation, the people who have gone before
us, I want to be like Abraham.
I want to be like Sarah.
I want to be like these people who made it into the Hall
of Faith.
And so, I said, "Okay God, if I have to get to the end of my
life believing for these promises, that's the stance I'm
going to take and that's the posture I'm going to take.
But if I never see it, you're still worthy.
If I never see it," and we obviously see the story of Job.
Everything was taken from him and he didn't curse God,
you know.
And I think sometimes I don't think we realize that we think
this way, but we have this thought about God that he's only
God and we're only going to serve him if he does what
we want.
But that's just not reality.
If he's God, he's God regardless of what happens in our life, and
he's still always going to be worthy.
And so, I think I finally found peace of saying, " I'm still
going to contend, but if I never see it, he's still faithful and
he's still good."
Rebecca: Yeah, I think there's kind of that laying down our
lives and our dreams and just fully trusting if it doesn't go
the way that we want, still choosing that I'm serving him
for him, not for the life that I wish.
And I think too I think it's just so important to have an
eternal perspective on life and to understand that this life is
just like a vapor.
And so, we just need to do what he's called us to do and be more
focused on eternity than the present, but I think it's just
so easy, I know for me, to get caught up in the present and
having life the way and having my circumstances the way I want
them and just coming to a place of like, "Okay God, I just
surrender this, you know, and whatever happens I'm gonna serve
you no matter what."
And so, that was your heart heart posture.
Catherine: It was.
And it's hard, you know, and my dad said something too that
really helped me, you know, obviously, you know, Jesus
didn't get married.
I know this is an odd thought, but family in heaven can
be different.
We don't know exactly what it's gonna look like, but I was--one
of the saddest things to me was I thought, "What's my family
gonna look like when I get to heaven?"
Rebecca: Wait, I think about this.
This is so funny.
I've never talked to anyone about this.
It's so crazy.
Catherine: I can't believe I've said it on a podcast, but it is
what it is.
Rebecca: I have thought about this though.
That's so funny.
Okay, sorry, that was me freaking out for a moment.
Catherine: But it's true.
I mean, Jesus has the biggest family in the world, you know,
and we're a part of that.
And so, I don't think our finite minds can comprehend that that
on that side of eternity, things are genuinely going to be good
and genuinely going to be okay.
And so, that was the thing I would think about and it's like
Paul the Apostle didn't have kids, you know, and he didn't
have a legacy and I just thought, "Okay," at different
times I said, "I'm standing with Jesus, I'm standing with Paul
the Apostle, I'm standing with people who didn't have that and
they still are in eternity and everything is amazing."
And I--we can't wrap our minds fully around what family truly
is, but it's much bigger than what we see on the earth.
So, I kept on believing, but I also was like, you know, the
Lord knows, and I'm living for eternity, not just for
this life.
And that honestly helped me a lot too.
Rebecca: Yeah, and it's like Paul didn't have any children,
but he had a legacy and he had a spiritual son Timothy.
And we look at the legacy with the--with those letters and I
mean, the church, I mean, massive legacy.
So, you're right.
There--even if it doesn't--things aren't
physically the way that you planned, God can still do
something, and there is like eternity, we can't really fathom
exactly what it's going to be like.
We just know it's going to be good and we know that we'll be
in a family.
So, you're in this place of surrender, eight years, am
I correct?
Passed by.
Catherine: Yes, so eight years, about eight and a half.
Rebecca: Were you just like done like thinking about it?
Like were you still trying or were you just like whatever
happens happens.
Catherine: I was probably a mixture, you know, depending on
the day, but it was definitely, "Okay Lord, you're just gonna
have to do this."
And the thing that was interesting too is because we
had looked into adoption.
We actually had a couple of things fall through.
So that was hard as well--
Rebecca: Because you thought, "Maybe it'll be this path."
Catherine: Yes and--but my husband always said and he was
great because we would love to adopt kids anyways.
That's like in our heart to do.
He said--I'm great with following that, but my husband,
oh God bless him, he is such a rock and he just said, "I feel
from the Lord we are going to have biological children," and
he really felt led to not--for us not to go the IVF route.
That just wasn't for us.
We just prayed about it and the reason behind that for him, that
was our faith journey.
And he just said, "Catherine, I feel like from the Lord
naturally we're going to have kids."
And he said--he was so encouraging just of praying
for me.
I mean, he'd picked me up off the floor sometimes because I
would just be crying, you know, Mother's Day was the hardest,
you know, or--and he would just say, you know, because we don't
talk about that, but it's okay to try and grieve in the
process, you know, because it does sometimes feel like the
death of a dream, you know.
Rebecca: Totally.
And I think as women, I think a lot of women, that is your
greatest dream, is to be a mom because I mean, that's how it is
for me.
And I didn't even really realize the fullness of it until I had
my first child, you know.
I don't even think some women--they don't even sometimes
even tap into it sometimes so they have their own kids,
you know.
But I think for most women, I would think that's one of the
most important things to them that they'll ever do.
There's, I mean, we're created to have babies, you know, like
that's an honor that God has given us.
Catherine: I agree.
Yeah, so it was--I mean, I was so thankful for my husband who
just--he just said, "I believe," you know, "we've got a word from
the Lord Catherine, we're going to stand on this."
And I just said, "Okay."
And that's what I love the covering of a solid man who
loves the Lord.
Rebecca: Praise God. That's like my husband.
I mean, just stayed through all the crazy--all my ups and downs.
We need God.
Catherine: I mean, we're like the--I feel like we're like the
Holy Spirit side, you know, the feeling side of the marriage was
that's great and the expression of the Lord through that way,
but thank God for their steadiness.
Rebecca: Consistency.
Yeah, I'm thanking God all the time for that, seriously.
I love it.
Catherine: But yeah, so eight and a half years, I actually had
a miscarriage, so I had never gotten pregnant, believed that
the promise was here.
And nine weeks into it--eight or nine weeks into it, I found
myself at the ER because I've been bleeding and yeah.
It was very hard.
I asked the Lord, you know, "What's going on," and I really
felt like he just said, "You're having a miscarriage."
And--
Rebecca: I can't imagine that feeling after waiting so long.
I feel like I'd be devastated.
Catherine: It was very hard, but the Lord prepared me.
I'd read Job, the book of Job the week before, and I
feel like--
Rebecca: The book of Suffering. Catherine: I mean, it really is.
And so, immediately when the nurse told me that I had a
miscarriage, I just said, "The Lord gives and the Lord
takes away.
Blessed be the name of the Lord."
But he had been prepping my heart for this, and I don't know
why, you know, I don't have an explanation on this side of
eternity why that happened.
I know I have a baby in heaven waiting for me and I can't wait.
I think it's a girl, can't wait to meet her and
she's worshiping.
And there was a phrase that somebody said, "I imagine the
first thing your baby saw when she opened her eyes was the face
of Jesus," you know.
And--
Rebecca: She's in the most perfect place, even though that
doesn't take away the pain of it, but at least there's a
little bit of peace with that.
Catherine: Yeah, I mean, and I'm going to see her again and it's
like a blink, a turn, you know, this life is like a blink
for her.
She's not even missing us yet, you know.
And--
Rebecca: It's different there. Catherine: Yeah, it is.
And so, I'm just a little while after that, I got healed and I
got pregnant again, and we now have a four and a half month old
miracle baby.
So, the journey, the eight and a half year journey is still very
real and raw because we just concluded it.
And--
Rebecca: I know because you have like a little baby baby.
How--what do you feel like was your biggest takeaway from
that season?
Like what do you feel like was the biggest thing you've learned
going through that?
Catherine: I think that the biggest thing is to never give
up, but also that God is worthy regardless.
And I think that's the biggest thing is like I'm going to love
him regardless.
I don't--he doesn't owe me anything and I think sometimes
we feel entitled like, "Well you owe me this God," and you--he
doesn't owe us anything.
Rebecca: And I think sometimes we aren't even aware of our own
entitlement until it gets like tested and then you're like, "Oh
I'm entitled," you know.
I think entitlement is big in the West, in the American church
because we're fed the American dream and, you know,
everyone's like--
And then it's like this--we're not living our lives based off
of that.
We're living our lives for his will and his plan, and you know.
And so, I've had entitlement too and God's had to be like, "Deal
with that."
Catherine: I mean, I still--I'm sure I still struggle with it in
different areas.
We're becoming. We are getting there.
Rebecca: Same. I'm a work in progress.
I'll be work in progress till the day I die.
But I think a huge thing is just like you said, I think you just
have to give everything to him and hold everything loosely and
understand it's all in his hands and we can't--we really don't
have control and it's just--we just have to release and trust
him and I think if we just stay humble, I think for me,
humility, it's just been the easiest thing for me to hear the
voice of the Lord if I just stay humble.
He's just like right there and that's--it's a spiritual
pra--it's a spiritual principle.
It says, "God abases is the proud, but he lifts up the
humble, and he draws close to the humble."
And so, for me, I've just learned if I can just keep my
head down and stay humble and just follow the Holy Spirit, I'm
gonna be okay.
Catherine: That's so good.
Rebecca: Yeah, he's gonna take care of us.
He's a good father and I think shifting into that understanding
of like him being my dad really like changed my faith walk.
And I think so many people relate to God like he's God and
he's holy and yeah, he's all these things and I fear God.
Like I really fear God.
Like he is holy and I reverence him, but he's also my father.
And so, I can draw close to him and he can be there for me in
every season of life.
And for me, it's like at the end of the day, you know, no one
wants to struggle.
No one wants to go through hard things.
I know I don't, but I know that he has my life in his hands and
nothing can ever separate me from him, and he walks with me
through every valley, and he's my father and he's gonna--he's
been with me through every season and he's faithful and
he's worth it.
You know, I remember one of the things the Lord told me when I
was 18, had no idea where my life was going, you know.
I look back on that I was like, "Man, when you called me, I
didn't know all this was gonna happen."
Oh, you know, but I remember one of the things he told me is he
said, "The path is hard, but it's worth it."
Catherine: So good.
Rebecca: And I'm like, "You know what, I just want to run my race
well, and I don't want to take stock in this life," which is
hard for me.
Sometimes I catch myself.
I want to take stock in eternity.
And then it's--there it'll be worth it.
Catherine: It's a Rita Springer song.
It's gonna be worth it all.
Rebecca: I love that song.
It's gonna be worth it all, and that's just such a
beautiful word.
Well, thank you so much for everything and just sharing your
story and for that great message and, you know, come back and we
can talk about other things, new updates.
Catherine: Thank you for having me.
I feel like we're new friends, and I love your heart and your
message, and we need more people like you speaking truth.
So, I just want to say keep it up and I'm cheering you on
from Georgia.
Rebecca: Thank you, and I'm cheering you on from Texas.
Catherine: Thank you very much.