>> ALL RIGHT. WELL, I'M VERY EXCITED
BECAUSE I HAVE DR. AARON KHERIATY,
DID I SAY IT RIGHT?
>> YOU NAILED IT.
>> YES. YOU ARE HERE WITH US TODAY AND I'M SO EXCITED.
WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT
A LOT OF TOPICS,
BUT TELL US A LITTLE BIT
ABOUT YOUR OWN BACKGROUND YOURSELF.
>> SURE.
SO I'M A PHYSICIAN,
I SPECIALIZE IN PSYCHIATRY.
FOR MOST OF MY CAREER,
I WAS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, IRVINE
IN THE SCHOOL OF MEDICINE WHERE I DIRECTED
THE MEDICAL ETHICS PROGRAM.
AND THAT ALL CHANGED IN THE MIDDLE OF COVID
WHEN I WAS INVOLVED IN THE UNIVERSITY'S POLICIES
FOR COVID AND BASICALLY VETTING ALL THE POLICIES
THAT HAD ETHICS IMPLICATIONS UP UNTIL
THE VACCINE MANDATE POLICY
WAS PUT FORWARD IN 2021.
AND THAT POLICY DIDN'T GO THROUGH OUR COMMITTEE
THAT HAD LOOKED AT ALL THE OTHER COVID POLICIES
AND THAT CONCERNED ME.
AND SO I WAS CONCERNED ABOUT THE IDEA OF
COERCING PEOPLE TO GET A MEDICAL INTERVENTION
THAT THEY MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE WANTED,
AND MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE NEEDED.
THERE WAS NO PROVISION IN THE POLICY, FOR EXAMPLE,
FOR PEOPLE WHO HAD ALREADY HAD COVID
AND ACQUIRED NATURAL IMMUNITY,
WHICH WE KNOW IS BETTER THAN VACCINE-MEDIATED IMMUNITY.
NATURAL IMMUNITY IS BASICALLY WHAT VACCINES
ATTEMPT TO IMITATE WITHOUT EVER, YOU KNOW,
BECOMING AS ROBUST AS WHAT YOUR OWN BODY DOES
AFTER IT RECOVERS FROM INFECTION.
AND I HAD PERSONALLY ALREADY HAD COVID
AND KNEW THAT I WAS THEREFORE PROTECTED,
AND IF I WERE TO GET A RECURRING VARIANT OF COVID,
THAT IT WAS MUCH MORE LIKELY TO BE MILD,
AND I WAS YOUNG AND RELATIVELY HEALTHY
AND NOT AT RISK.
AND I KNEW THERE WERE MANY OTHER PEOPLE LIKE THAT,
WHO WOULD LOOK AT THE RISKS AND BENEFITS
OF THIS NOVEL TECHNOLOGY
THAT HAD JUST BEEN DEVELOPED
AND THAT WE DIDN'T KNOW VERY MUCH ABOUT
AND SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT, ON BALANCE,
I WILL TAKE MY CHANCES AND TRY TO
IMPROVE MY HEALTH, YOU KNOW,
THROUGH OTHER MEANS, BUT I DON'T WANT THE VACCINE.
AND I THOUGHT PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT
TO DO THAT.
AND, IN FACT, THAT'S GROUNDED IN ONE OF
THE CORE PRINCIPLES OF MEDICAL ETHICS.
THE PRINCIPLE OF INFORMED CONSENT, WHICH I TAUGHT
IN LECTURE TO ALL THE MEDICAL STUDENTS EVERY YEAR
IN THEIR REQUIRED ETHICS COURSE.
AND SO A POLICY THAT WOULD BASICALLY
TOSS THAT PRINCIPLE OVERBOARD
TO ME, VIOLATED ONE OF THE THINGS
THAT MEDICAL ETHICS ALWAYS NEEDS TO
STAND FAST AND STAND BY.
AND SO I PUBLISHED A PIECE IN THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
ARGUING THAT UNIVERSITY VACCINE MANDATES WERE UNETHICAL.
AND I FOCUSED ON UNIVERSITIES BECAUSE
THEY WERE THE FIRST INSTITUTIONS TO MANDATE
THE COVID VACCINE BEFORE BUSINESSES AND OTHER
GOVERNMENT AGENCIES STARTED DOING THAT.
AND THAT WAS AN ATTEMPT TO GET A CONVERSATION GOING
AT THE UNIVERSITY WHICH FAILED.
I WAS STYMIED IN MY ATTEMPTS
TO HAVE A REAL DEBATE AND DISCUSSION
ABOUT THIS POLICY.
AND A COUPLE WEEKS AFTER I PUBLISHED THAT ARTICLE
THE UNIVERSITY FINALIZED THEIR POLICY.
AND I DECIDED AT THAT POINT THAT I NEEDED
TO DO SOMETHING, NOT JUST TO SPEAK OUT
AGAINST THE POLICY AND VOICE MY OPINION ABOUT IT,
BUT AS DIRECTOR OF THE MEDICAL ETHICS PROGRAM,
TO DO SOMETHING TO TRY TO ACTUALLY CHANGE IT.
SO I MADE THE FATEFUL DECISION AND FATAL DECISION
TO CHALLENGE THE POLICY IN FEDERAL COURT.
AND AS I MENTIONED EARLIER TODAY ON OUR CONVERSATION,
A GOOD WAY TO GO SIDEWAYS WITH YOUR EMPLOYER
VERY QUICKLY IS TO SUE THEM IN FEDERAL COURT.
AND THE UNIVERSITY QUICKLY RETALIATED BY FIRING ME.
SO I FOUND MYSELF SCRAMBLING TO PUT TOGETHER
A PRIVATE PRACTICE
WHERE I COULD SEE MY PATIENTS.
I STILL DO PART-TIME WORK IN MY SPECIALTY,
WHICH IS PSYCHIATRY,
AND I STARTED WORKING FOR AN INDEPENDENT THINK TANK
IN WASHINGTON, D.C. CALLED
THE ETHICS AND PUBLIC POLICY CENTER
TO CONTINUE DOING MY WORK
IN BIOETHICS AND PUBLIC POLICY.
SO THAT'S SORT OF BEEN MY CAREER TRAJECTORY.
I WAS AT THE UNIVERSITY WHERE I HAD DONE
MY RESIDENCY TRAINING.
I HAD BEEN THERE FOR 20 YEARS,
IF YOU COUNT RESIDENCY.
I HAD EXPECTED
I WAS GOING TO RETIRE THERE AND JUST CONTINUE
TEACHING MEDICAL STUDENTS AND RUNNING THE ETHICS PROGRAM
UNTIL THE END OF MY CAREER AND ALL OF THAT CHANGED.
GOD CLEARLY HAD OTHER PLANS FOR ME,
AND MY CAREER WENT IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION.
AND BY THE GRACE OF GOD
I LANDED ON MY FEET PROFESSIONALLY
AND HAVE CONTINUED TO DO MY WORK WITH THE SUPPORT OF EPPC.
I GET SOME SUPPORT ALSO FROM ANOTHER
INDEPENDENT THINK TANK CALLED THE BROWNSTONE INSTITUTE.
AND SO GOD HAS BEEN GOOD AND GENEROUS AND ALLOWED ME
TO CONTINUE WRITING, DOING MY RESEARCH, PUBLISHING,
AND TALKING ABOUT THESE ISSUES THAT I THINK
ARE SO IMPORTANT FOR AMERICANS TO UNDERSTAND.
SOMETIMES PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T STUDY SCIENCE OR MEDICINE
CAN BECOME INTIMIDATED WHEN WE START TALKING ABOUT
ISSUES IN SCIENCE AND MEDICINE.
BUT WHAT'S COMING DOWN THE PIKE AND THE KINDS OF ISSUES
THAT WE'RE FACING BECAUSE OF NEW MEDICAL TECHNOLOGIES,
BECAUSE OF NEW TECHNOLOGIES LIKE AI,
THESE ARE THINGS THAT WE CANNOT SIMPLY SAY,
OH, I'M GOING TO LEAVE THAT TO THE EXPERTS
TO SORT OUT, RIGHT?
VERY OFTEN THE EXPERTS ARE PEOPLE
THAT HAVE CERTAIN FINANCIAL INTERESTS AT STAKE
IN THESE TECHNOLOGIES.
THEY'RE PEOPLE WHO HAVE CERTAIN IDEOLOGICAL INTERESTS
THAT MAY NOT ALIGN WITH OUR OWN VIEWS
AND OUR OWN MORAL CONVICTIONS.
SO I TRY TO EDUCATE AMERICANS ON THESE ISSUES
AS WELL, ORDINARY AMERICANS AND NOT JUST PEOPLE
THAT ARE INVOLVED IN THESE FIELDS
BECAUSE THESE ARE THINGS THAT ALL OF US
HAVE A STAKE IN.
WE ALL HAVE A STAKE IN THE FUTURE
OF HOW SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY IS USED IN MEDICINE
AND IN SOCIETY IN GENERAL.
>> IT'S SO IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND
WHAT'S GOING ON, AND THAT THEY CAN
MAKE INFORMED DECISIONS.
AND, YOU KNOW, EVEN THOUGH YOU LOST YOUR JOB,
YOU TOOK A RISK, YOU STOOD UP FOR WHAT WAS RIGHT.
BUT GOD WILL USE THESE DIFFICULT TIMES
TO TRANSITION US INTO PLACES
WE WOULD HAVE NEVER GONE
IF WE HADN'T BEEN PUSHED OUT.
WHAT'S INTERESTING TO ME ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU
AT THE UNIVERSITY WAS THAT YOU WERE OVER
THE MEDICAL ETHICS AND YET
THEY DID NOT COME TO YOU OVER
THIS IMPORTANT TOPIC OF INFORMED CONSENT
IN TERMS OF THE VACCINE.
>> YEAH.
>> THAT'S VERY STRANGE.
>> I WAS PUZZLED BY THAT AS WELL.
IT WAS VERY STRANGE
THAT NOT JUST ME,
BUT WE HAD A WHOLE COMMITTEE OF PEOPLE LIKE ME
FROM ALL FIVE OF THE BRANCH CAMPUSES
THAT HAD HOSPITALS, AND THIS POLICY JUST SIMPLY
CAME DOWN FROM ON HIGH.
WE HAD SPENT, I HAD SPENT NIGHTS AND WEEKENDS
HAMMERING OUT THE NITTY-GRITTY DETAILS
OF ALL KINDS OF OTHER COVID POLICIES THAT HAD
ETHICS IMPLICATIONS.
AND THEN THE ONE THAT WAS GOING TO CLEARLY BE
THE MOST PUBLICLY AND ETHICALLY CONTROVERSIAL,
IT WAS LIKE, NOPE, WE'RE DOING THIS
AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT IT.
WHICH SUGGESTED TO ME THAT THERE WERE OTHER FORCES AT WORK.
I THINK THERE WERE FINANCIAL INTERESTS AT WORK.
I THINK THERE WERE PROBLEMS WITH OUR
PUBLIC HEALTH AGENCIES AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL
LEANING ON UNIVERSITIES TO DO THEIR BIDDING
AND TO EMBRACE THIS APPROACH TO
THE PANDEMIC RESPONSE.
ONE SIMPLE EXAMPLE I GIVE IS WE HAD ANTHONY FAUCI
AT THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF HEALTH.
AND THE NIH, HIS JOB IS NOT TO MAKE POLICY.
THE NIH'S JOB IS TO FUND RESEARCH
IN THE UNITED STATES.
SO 85% OF BIOMEDICAL RESEARCH IN THE UNITED STATES
IS FUNDED BY THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF HEALTH.
SO FAUCI IS IN CONTROL OF A DIVISION OF THE NIH
INVOLVED IN INFECTIOUS DISEASE,
THAT BASICALLY HAS ENORMOUS POWER
OVER ALL THE INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCHERS
AT ALL THE UNIVERSITIES.
AT THE SAME TIME,
AND THIS IS WHERE I THINK THERE WAS
A CONFLICT OF INTEREST,
HE WAS THE WHITE HOUSE'S POLICY ADVISER ON COVID
AND HE WAS GETTING ON TV AND HE WAS BASICALLY
MAKING RECOMMENDATIONS ON LOCKDOWNS AND MASK MANDATES
AND VACCIN MANDATES AND SCHOOL CLOSURES
AND SO FORTH.
WELL, IF YOU'RE A RESEARCHER AT A UNIVERSITY
WHO THINKS THESE ARE BAD POLICIES,
WHO RECOGNIZES THEY'RE NOT GROUNDED IN GOOD SCIENCE,
WELL, YOU MIGHT BE TEMPTED TO KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT
BECAUSE IF YOU CONTRADICT ANTHONY FAUCI OR THE OTHER
BUREAUCRATS AT THE NIH, THEY MIGHT JUST CUT OFF
YOUR RESEARCH FUNDING, RIGHT.
AND SO I THINK WE NEED TO BASICALLY HAVE
A MAJOR REFORM OF OUR PUBLIC HEALTH AGENCIES
SO THAT THE AGENCY RESPONSIBLE FOR RESEARCH
IS JUST FUNDING RESEARCH AND THEY ARE SUPPORTING
FREE SPEECH AND DISSENTING OPINIONS IN SCIENCE
BECAUSE THAT'S ACTUALLY HOW SCIENCE PROGRESSES.
IF YOU TAKE A GROUP OF A DOZEN SCIENTISTS,
YOU PUT THEM IN A ROOM TOGETHER,
WHAT DO THEY DO?
THEY DEBATE ENDLESSLY ABOUT, YOU KNOW,
THE NUANCES OF THE DATA
OR THE UPSHOT OF THE RESEARCH ON THIS TOPIC
AS A WHOLE.
THAT'S WHAT THEY DO, THEY ARGUE AND THEY DEBATE
AND THEY REFINE THEIR IDEAS
BASED ON THAT DEBATE.
THEY DON'T GET ON TV AND SAY QUOTE, UNQUOTE
THE SCIENCE SAYS YOU SHOULD DO X ON A VERY
COMPLEX PROBLEM OR COMPLEX PUBLIC HEALTH QUESTION,
LIKE WHETHER OR NOT TO CLOSE THE SCHOOLS, WHICH HAS ALL
KINDS OF, YOU KNOW, IMPLICATIONS BEYOND JUST
THE SPREADING OF A VIRUS.
IT HAS IMPLICATIONS ON CHILD DEVELOPMENT.
IT HAS IMPLICATIONS ON CHILDREN'S
EMOTIONAL DEVELOPMENT.
HAS IMPLICATIONS ON THE ECONOMY.
IT HAS ALL KINDS OF COMPLEXITIES THAT
NO ONE SCIENTIST HAS TOTAL EXPERTISE ON.
AND SO WHAT WAS LACKING DURING COVID
WAS THIS ROBUST PUBLIC DEBATE
THAT SHOULD CHARACTERIZE SCIENCE,
THAT SHOULD CHARACTERIZE PUBLIC POLICY,
THAT SHOULD CHARACTERIZE THE EDUCATION SYSTEM
AND BUSINESSES AND ALL KINDS OF OTHER THINGS
THAT WERE IMPACTED BY THESE DECISIONS.
AND THAT'S PRECISELY WHAT WE DIDN'T HAVE.
WE DEFERRED TO THESE SO-CALLED EXPERTS,
WHICH TOOK US DOWN A PATH THAT I WOULD ARGUE
ENDED UP DOING A LOT MORE HARM THAN GOOD.
>> I AGREE. AND YOU'RE RIGHT, COVID REALLY DID
KIND OF LIFT THE VEIL AND LET US SEE KIND OF THE THINGS
THAT REALLY NEED TO BE FIXED
IN OUR PUBLIC HEALTHCARE SYSTEM.
AND THE OTHER THING THAT I WAS GOING TO SAY IS,
I HAD TWO QUESTIONS.
SO DID THE UNIVERSITY PUSH
FOR THE STUDENTS TO GET VACCINATED
OR THEY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO GO?
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
THEY MANDATED IT.
PART OF THE POLICY THAT I HAD CHALLENGED IN FEDERAL COURT
WAS STUDENTS WERE REQUIRED TO TAKE THE VACCINE.
SO THIS IS A POPULATION THAT WAS YOUNG.
>> YEAH.
>> MOST OF THEM VERY HEALTHY.
NOT AT ANY SIGNIFICANT RISK OF SERIOUS MORBIDITY
OR DEATH FROM COVID, THAT WERE FORCED TO TAKE
WHAT WAS AN EXPERIMENTAL PRODUCT BY OUR OWN
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S DEFINITION OF EXPERIMENT
WHEN IT WAS UNDER EMERGENCY USE AUTHORIZATION.
SO THE IDEA OF MANDATING ANY VACCINE LIKE THIS
TO AN 18- OR 19-YEAR OLD,
I THINK IS PROBLEMATIC, BUT ESPECIALLY A VACCINE
WITH BRAND-NEW TECHNOLOGY THAT WAS JUST BEING ROLLED OUT
ON A MASS SCALE FOR THE FIRST TIME.
AND MY STANCE AGAINST THE POLICY WAS BASED ON ETHICAL GROUNDS.
IT WAS BASED ON THIS,
THIS DOCTRINE OF INFORMED CONSENT THAT I MENTIONED EARLIER
THAT ADULTS OF SOUND MIND AFTER GETTING INFORMATION
ON THE RISKS, BENEFITS AND ALTERNATIVES
OF A TREATMENT SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO ACCEPT THAT
TREATMENT OR TO REFUSE IT.
BUT EVEN ASIDE FROM THE ETHICAL ISSUES,
THERE WERE ALSO MAJOR ISSUES RELATED TO SAFETY
AND EFFICACY OF THESE PRODUCTS THAT STARTED EMERGING
AND HAD BEGUN TO EMERGE BY THE END OF 2021
WHEN THESE VACCINE MANDATES WERE BEING ROLLED OUT.
AND I THINK THOSE ALSO NOW IN RETROSPECT ARE
CAUSE FOR SERIOUS CONCERN, AND A KIND OF CAUTIONARY TALE
THAT WHEN WE RUSH TO JUDGMENT AND WHEN WE RUSH
TO A SCIENTIFIC CONCLUSION WHERE BASICALLY ANY
DISSENTING VOICES ARE SUPPRESSED,
WE END UP MAKING A LOT OF MISTAKES.
AND THE WAY TO GET GOOD OUTCOMES IN SCIENCE
AND MEDICINE IS TO LET ALL THE DIFFERENT VOICES
OF THE PEOPLE INVOLVED, ALL THE DIFFERENT STAKEHOLDERS
BE HEARD AND TO HAVE ROBUST DEBATE AND DISCUSSION
ON QUESTIONS THAT ARE NOT YET SETTLED
AND WE NEED TO TRY TO DO OUR BEST.
YOU KNOW, NO ONE PERSON ON A QUESTION
AS COMPLICATED AS THIS, HAS A MONOPOLY ON ALL THE ANSWERS
AND ALL THE TRUTH.
AND BEHAVING AS THOUGH THEY DO
ENDS UP BASICALLY SETTING US UP FOR
POTENTIALLY FAILURE AND SERIOUS DOWNSTREAM HARMS.
>> AND THE OTHER THING THAT I WANTED TO MENTION
THAT YOU HAD SAID, KIND OF TOUCHED ON PREVIOUSLY,
WAS ANOTHER PROBLEM WITH THE SYSTEM
IS THAT PEOPLE LIKE DR. ANTHONY FAUCI
WERE ABLE TO LINE THEIR POCKETS.
>> YES.
>> WITH MONEY. I MEAN, HOW IS THAT ALLOWED?
ANYWHERE ELSE IT WOULD BE NOT ALLOWED.
>> HERE'S ANOTHER SERIOUS CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
AND, YOU KNOW, ON THE SILVER LINING SIDE OF THINGS,
MY COLLEAGUE AND CO-PLAINTIFF IN A FREE SPEECH CASE,
JAY BHATTACHARYA, IS THE NEW DIRECTOR OF THE NIH,
AND HE'S A MAN OF ENORMOUS INTEGRITY,
A FAITHFUL CHRISTIAN MAN.
I HAVE THE HIGHEST RESPECT FOR HIM,
AND I THINK HE'S WELL-POSITIONED,
AND I'M WORKING IN AN ADVISORY CAPACITY WITH HIM
TO TRY TO CLEAN UP SOME OF THESE PROBLEMS IN THAT
PARTICULAR HEALTH AGENCY.
BUT MANY AMERICANS DON'T REALIZE THAT THE NIH,
AND SEVERAL SCIENTISTS AT THE NIH,
WERE CO-OWNERS OF THE MODERNA VACCINE PATENT.
SO THAT VACCINE WAS DEVELOPED IN PART WITH
TAXPAYER DOLLARS DOING THE RESEARCH.
AND, YOU KNOW, TAXPAYERS DON'T OWN THE PATENT ON THAT
AND THEY'RE NOT GETTING ROYALTY PAYMENTS
FOR THE MODERNA VACCINE, BUT SEVERAL NIH EMPLOYEES
IN ANTHONY FAUCI'S DIVISION ARE,
AND THEIR CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN
WILL ALSO GET THOSE ROYALTIES FROM THE VACCINE.
THAT TO ME IS A CLEAR CONFLICT OF INTEREST AGAIN.
WHEN YOU HAVE, WHEN YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE
RESPONSIBLE FOR MAKING POLICY AND FUNDING RESEARCH
THAT ARE FINANCIALLY BENEFITING
FROM THE PARTICULAR OUTCOME OF THAT RESEARCH
AND HOW THOSE PRODUCTS ARE BEING USED,
THAT SETS US UP FOR CORRUPTION AS WELL,
BECAUSE THEY'RE GOING TO MAKE A DECISION AGAIN
NOT BASED ON WHAT'S THE SAFEST AND MOST
EFFICACIOUS APPROACH TO MITIGATING THE EFFECTS
OF COVID.
THEY'RE GOING TO BE INCLINED,
HUMAN NATURE BEING WHAT IT IS,
TO GO WITH A SOLUTION
THAT'S GOING TO MAKE THEM MORE MONEY, RIGHT?
AND THIS IS, AGAIN,
WITH CONFLICTS OF INTEREST YOU DON'T EVEN
HAVE TO ATTRIBUTE, YOU KNOW, ILL WILL
OR MALICE TO ANYONE.
IT'S JUST THESE THINGS INFLUENCE US
IN ALL KINDS OF SUBTLE AND UNCONSCIOUS WAYS AS WELL.
SO THERE'S STRUCTURAL PROBLEMS.
THIS IS NOT JUST A POINT THE FINGER AT ONE
OR ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL AND SAY, YOU KNOW,
THIS PERSON IS CORRUPT, BUT THERE'S STRUCTURAL PROBLEMS
IN OUR FEDERAL PUBLIC HEALTH AGENCIES THAT NEED TO BE
WORKED OUT TO AVOID THESE KINDS OF CONFLICTS OF INTEREST
AND THESE KINDS OF PERVERSE INCENTIVES
THAT CAN DRIVE US IN THE WRONG DIRECTION.
>> ABSOLUTELY. AND SPEAKING OF THE VACCINE,
YOU ENDED UP NOT GETTING IT.
HOW DID YOU KNOW, WHAT WAS AN ALARM BELL TO YOU
THAT MADE YOU THINK I'M NOT GOING TO DO THIS
EVEN THOUGH IT COULD COST ME MY JOB?
>> SO THE FIRST ALARM BELL
IS THAT SCIENCE DOES NOT PROGRESS AT WARP SPEED
SIMPLY BECAUSE WE THROW A LOT OF MONEY AT IT
AND WE GIVE IT A FANCY NAME LIKE OPERATION WARP SPEED.
SO, I MEAN, I COMMEND EVERYONE WHO'S WORKING HARD
TO COME UP WITH VACCINES, TO COME UP WITH
OTHER SOLUTIONS TO COVID DURING A CRISIS.
I DON'T WANT TO DISPARAGE ANYONE'S GOOD INTENTIONS,
BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU CAN'T MAKE SCIENCE SPEED UP
SIMPLY BY SPENDING A LOT OF MONEY ON IT.
SOME THINGS TAKE TIME.
SOME THINGS TAKE TIME TO SIFT AND TO SORT OUT
AND TO ANALYZE THE RESULTS.
SO I WAS CONCERNED ABOUT THE SPEED
WITH WHICH THESE PRODUCTS WERE DEVELOPED.
I WAS CONCERNED ABOUT THE FACT THAT THEY HAD
NEVER BEEN USED ON A MASS SCALE IN HUMANS BEFORE.
AND I WAS CONCERNED ABOUT THE TECHNOLOGY ITSELF
BECAUSE AS I DOVE INTO THE MRNA TECHNOLOGY
I REALIZED THAT BASICALLY WHAT THIS IS DOING
IS CREATING WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE
A LOCALIZED, ESSENTIALLY AUTOIMMUNE RESPONSE.
IT'S ASKING THE CELLS IN OUR OWN BODY TO EXPRESS
THE SPIKE PROTEIN WHICH IS FOUND ON THE VIRUS
TO TRIGGER OUR IMMUNE SYSTEM
TO RESPOND TO THAT SPIKE PROTEIN,
BUT IT'S GOING TO RESPOND TO THAT SPIKE PROTEIN
BY CREATING A LOCALIZED INFLAMMATORY RESPONSE
AT THE SITE OF INJECTION.
THAT WAS THE THEORY.
AND IT WAS A KIND OF AUTOIMMUNE RESPONSE
THAT TRIGGERED IN MY MIND,
WELL, WHAT IF THAT RESPONSE GETS A LITTLE EXCESSIVE
OR OUT OF HAND, THAT COULD CONTRIBUTE TO
A WORSENING OF AUTOIMMUNE CONDITIONS
IN VULNERABLE INDIVIDUALS,
MAYBE EVEN CREATING NEW AUTOIMMUNE CONDITIONS
IN PEOPLE THAT DIDN'T HAVE THEM BEFORE.
AND THEN THERE WAS A -- THERE WAS A PIECE OF INFORMATION
THAT WAS SUPPRESSED THAT PFIZER KNEW ABOUT.
THERE WAS A STUDY DONE IN JAPAN
LOOKING AT BASICALLY HOW THE VACCINE
WAS DISTRIBUTED THROUGHOUT THE BODY.
AND NOT TO GET TOO DOWN INTO THE WEEDS,
BUT THE LIPID NANOPARTICLE THAT CARRIED THE MRNA
WAS FOUND IN ALL THE TISSUES OF THE BODY.
IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ANCHORED IN THE DELTOID,
IN THE ARM MUSCLE WHERE YOU GOT THE SHOT.
BUT WE KNEW FROM ANIMAL STUDIES THAT IT WAS
DISTRIBUTED THROUGHOUT THE ANIMALS BODIES.
AND THE HIGHEST CONCENTRATION OF THE LIPID NANOPARTICLE
WAS FOUND IN THE OVARIES, WHICH WAS ALSO VERY CONCERNING.
AND THEN WE STARTED SEEING EARLY ANECDOTAL REPORTS
OF WOMEN DESCRIBING MENSTRUAL IRREGULARITIES,
OF WOMEN DESCRIBING MISCARRIAGES,
AND OTHER REPRODUCTIVE-RELATED PROBLEMS
AFTER GETTING THE VACCINE.
SO THEN THE ALARM BELLS STARTED GOING OFF
FOR ME THAT, HEY, WAIT A MINUTE.
THIS KIND OF INFLAMMATORY REACTION IS BEING CREATED
IN MULTIPLE ORGAN SYSTEMS IN THE BODY.
WE STARTED SEEING EARLY REPORTS OF MYOCARDITIS,
WHICH IS A FANCY WAY OF SAYING
INFLAMMATION OF THE HEART,
THAT WAS CREATED BY THE VACCINE.
SO BY THE TIME THE VACCINE MANDATE CAME OUT,
THERE WAS ENOUGH CONCERN IN MY OWN MIND ABOUT SAFETY
THAT I SAID, YOU KNOW,
I'VE ALREADY HAD COVID
SO I KNOW I HAVE ROBUST NATURAL IMMUNITY.
I'M GOING TO TAKE MY CHANCES HERE
WITHOUT THE VACCINE.
I ALSO HAD CONCERNS ABOUT EFFICACY BECAUSE YOU
STARTED SEEING THAT THE EARLY REPORTS,
YOU KNOW, THIS IS VERY EFFECTIVE,
IT WILL HELP PREVENT YOU FROM GETTING REALLY SICK
IF YOU GET COVID.
INITIALLY, PEOPLE WERE SAYING
IT'LL STOP INFECTION AND TRANSMISSION.
I KNEW THAT THAT WAS A LIE BECAUSE I HAD LOOKED AT
THE CLINICAL TRIALS DATA,
AND THEY WERE NOT POWERED TO ASSESS THAT QUESTION.
IN OTHER WORDS,
WE DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER THESE WOULD STOP
INFECTION AND TRANSMISSION.
AND THEN A FEW MONTHS INTO THE ROLLOUT,
IT WAS VERY CLEAR THAT THEY WERE NOT STOPPING
INFECTION AND TRANSMISSION.
SO WE KNEW THAT ABOUT EFFICACY.
THEN WE STARTED SEEING EFFICACY DECLINE VERY QUICKLY,
WHICH IS WHY THEY SAY,
OKAY, NOW AFTER A COUPLE OF MONTHS,
YOU ONLY RECENTLY GOT YOUR VACCINE.
YOU NEED A QUOTE, UNQUOTE BOOSTER.
YOU NEED ANOTHER SHOT, RIGHT?
AND THEN AFTER THE SECOND BOOSTER,
THE THIRD BOOSTER CAME EVEN MORE QUICKLY.
THAT'S BECAUSE INITIALLY YOU GOT PROTECTION AGAINST
SEVERE DISEASE MAYBE FOR THREE OR FOUR MONTHS.
AFTER THE SECOND SHOT,
IT WAS ABOUT EIGHT WEEKS.
AND AFTER THE THIRD SHOT,
IT WAS EVEN LESS THAN THAT.
IT WAS ONLY A MONTH.
SO WE'RE GETTING DIMINISHING RETURNS.
WHY ARE WE DOUBLING DOWN ON A PRODUCT
THAT IS CLEARLY FAILING?
SO I FELT LIKE BY THE TIME
THE UNIVERSITY WAS GOING TO FORCE THIS PRODUCT ON ME,
I HAD ENOUGH INFORMATION ABOUT DECLINING EFFICACY;
I HAD ENOUGH INFORMATION ABOUT EARLY WARNING SIGNS
AND SAFETY CONCERNS;
AND I HAD MY ETHICAL PRINCIPLES OF INFORMED CONSENT
THAT, YOU KNOW, I HAD MORE THAN ENOUGH TO GO ON
TO SAY THIS IS NOT SOMETHING,
THIS IS NOT A PRODUCT THAT I WANT TO TAKE.
THIS IS NOT A PRODUCT I'M GOING TO ADVISE
MY FAMILY MEMBERS TO TAKE.
>> AND I THINK ANOTHER REALLY IMPORTANT THING
THAT WE HOPEFULLY --
I HOPE PEOPLE HAVE LEARNED FROM COVID
IS NOT TO ALLOW FEAR
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> TO CAUSE US TO MAKE VERY IMPORTANT DECISIONS
THAT ARE GOING TO CHANGE OUR FUTURE OF OUR NATION.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
WE'RE TEMPTED UNDER THESE CRISIS SITUATIONS,
THAT'S PRECISELY WHEN WE'RE TEMPTED TO
ABANDON OUR ETHICAL PRINCIPLES, RIGHT.
THE PRINCIPLE OF INFORMED CONSENT SOUNDS GREAT
WHEN EVERYTHING IS CALM AND NORMAL,
BUT NOW THIS IS AN EMERGENCY AND WE HAVE TO
GET PEOPLE TO DO THIS OTHERWISE
BAD THINGS ARE GOING TO HAPPEN.
YOU KNOW, WARTIME, PANDEMICS, OTHER PUBLIC EMERGENCIES,
ARE PRECISELY WHEN WE NEED TO GO BACK TO THE BASICS
AND STAND FIRM ON WHAT WE KNOW TO BE TRUE.
BECAUSE FEAR TENDS TO MAKE US LOSE OUR HEADS.
IT TENDS TO BEWILDER US.
IT TENDS TO DRIVE US IN DIRECTIONS OF
DOING ILL-ADVISED THINGS AND ALSO TREATING OTHER PEOPLE
IN WAYS THAT ARE NOT CONSISTENT WITH OUR VALUES.
AND THIS IS ANOTHER THING THAT WE SAW DURING THE PANDEMIC.
I'M VERY CONCERNED ABOUT MY FRIEND,
MATTIAS DESMET IS A SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGIST
WHO'S TALKED A LOT ABOUT THIS,
THIS CONCEPT OF MASS FORMATION.
THAT UNDER THIS CLIMATE OF FEAR,
MANY PEOPLE ENTERED INTO A KIND OF ALMOST HYPNOTIC STATE
WHERE THERE WAS A TENDENCY TO SCAPEGOAT AND DEMONIZE PEOPLE
THAT WERE NOT GOING ALONG WITH THE PROGRAM.
WHICH CREATED ENORMOUS PRESSURES TO CONFORM, RIGHT?
BUT I THINK ONE OF THE LESSONS THAT WE CAN
TAKE FROM THE PANDEMIC IS THAT WE CANNOT LIVE IN FEAR.
AND THAT, YOU KNOW, OUR BODILY HEALTH,
IF IT'S THREATENED, IS NOT THE HIGHEST GOOD.
OBVIOUSLY NO ONE WANTS TO GET SICK,
OBVIOUSLY THERE'S A NATURAL HUMAN FEAR OF DEATH
THAT INFLUENCES US PSYCHOLOGICALLY.
I MEAN, I'M A PSYCHIATRIST.
I'D BE THE LAST PERSON IN THE WORLD TO DENY THIS.
BUT ESPECIALLY AS CHRISTIANS, AS PEOPLE OF FAITH,
WE NEED TO REMEMBER THAT OUR BODILY HEALTH
IS NOT THE HIGHEST GOOD, RIGHT.
THERE ARE SPIRITUAL GOODS RELATED TO BEING WILLING
TO SPEAK AND LIVE THE TRUTH,
TREATING OTHER PEOPLE WITH LOVE,
WORSHIPPING GOD.
I MEAN, CHURCHES CLOSING DOWN WHILE BARS AND LIQUOR STORES
AND MARIJUANA DISPENSARIES REMAIN OPEN
BECAUSE THOSE ARE ESSENTIAL SERVICES
AND SOMEHOW THE COMMUNAL WORSHIP OF GOD
IS AN OPTIONAL EXTRA THAT WE CAN DISCARD.
NO. CHRISTIANS NEED TO STAND UP AND SAY
NO, THIS IS NOT HOW A SANE SOCIETY SHOULD OPERATE.
THERE ARE HIGHER HUMAN AND SPIRITUAL GOODS
THAT CAN NEVER BE DISCARDED,
EVEN DURING DIFFICULT TIMES.
EVEN DURING PANDEMICS, EVEN DURING WARTIME.
I MEAN, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I WAS REALLY
DISAPPOINTED IN IS THAT CHRISTIANS AND, YOU KNOW,
MINISTERS AND PRIESTS DID NOT PUSH BACK
MORE FORCEFULLY AGAINST HOSPITALS,
WHERE PEOPLE WERE DYING ALONE, WITHOUT SPIRITUAL CARE,
WITHOUT MINISTRY.
AND MY OWN CATHOLIC TRADITION WITHOUT BEING ABLE
TO RECEIVE FROM A PRIEST THE SACRAMENTS
THAT WE GIVE TO PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY --
WELL, TO ALL PEOPLE
BUT ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY'RE DYING
TO PREPARE THEM TO MEET THEIR MAKER.
THIS IS A BIBLICAL PRINCIPLE THAT WE'RE NOT
GOING TO ABANDON EVEN WHEN THINGS ARE DIFFICULT.
AND WE'LL TAKE ALL REASONABLE NECESSARY PRECAUTIONS,
YOU KNOW, NOT TO SPREAD THE VIRUS AND SO ON AND SO FORTH,
BUT WE'RE NOT GOING TO ALLOW PEOPLE TO DIE ALONE
WITHOUT THE COMPANY OF FAMILY AND FRIENDS
AND PEOPLE WHO CAN MINISTER TO THEM.
I THINK THAT WAS A GREAT TRAVESTY,
AND I HOPE -- I HOPE AND PRAY THAT CHRISTIANS
AND OTHER PEOPLE OF FAITH IN THE UNITED STATES
NEVER ALLOW SOMETHING LIKE THAT TO HAPPEN AGAIN,
AND THAT WE DON'T ABANDON OUR PRINCIPLES.
BECAUSE PRAYER AND COLLECTIVE WORSHIP OF GOD,
AND GOING TO CHURCH ON SUNDAYS AND MINISTERING
TO THE SICK AND THE DYING,
THESE ARE NOT OPTIONAL EXTRAS.
THESE ARE THINGS THAT WE CAN NEVER ABANDON.
IF YOU LOOK AT, YOU LOOK AT PERIODS IN TIMES PAST,
PEOPLE RISKED THEIR LIVES DURING THE PLAGUE
AND OTHER PANDEMICS TO MINISTER TO THE SICK.
SOMETIMES EVEN SACRIFICING THEIR LIFE IN ORDER TO
CARE FOR THOSE WHO WHO NEEDED CHRIST'S LOVE,
ESPECIALLY IN THAT MOMENT,
ESPECIALLY IN THEIR SUFFERING.
AND, YOU KNOW, THIS BRINGS ME TO THE OTHER THING
THAT WE TALKED ABOUT EARLIER TODAY,
THIS THEME OF SUFFERING.
I THINK PERHAPS ONE OF THE LESSONS OF THE PANDEMIC
IS THAT, YOU KNOW, CHRISTIANS IN AMERICA
PERHAPS HAVE FORGOTTEN HOW TO SUFFER WELL,
HOW TO CARRY THE CROSS,
AND THAT WE LET FEAR OVER OVERTAKE US.
AND, YOU KNOW, EVERYONE LOVES --
EVERYONE LOVES CHRIST, THE TEACHER,
THE WISE TEACHER AND THE BRILLIANT PREACHER.
EVERYONE LOVES CHRIST, THE HEALER,
WHO CURES THE SICK AND HEALS THE BLIND
AND THE LAME.
EVERYONE LOVES THE GLORIFIED AND RISEN CHRIST
WHO CONQUERED DEATH.
BUT VERY OFTEN, ESPECIALLY IN OUR, YOU KNOW,
COMFORTABLE, AFFLUENT, BOURGEOIS SOCIETY,
WE FORGET ABOUT THE SUFFERING CHRIST.
WE FORGET ABOUT CHRIST IN HIS PASSION.
CHRIST'S SUFFERING, HIS ANGUISH
IN THE GARDEN OF GETHSEMANE,
HIS ARREST, HIS ABANDONMENT BY HIS FRIENDS,
THE CARRYING OF THE CROSS AND THE CRUCIFIXION.
AND I THINK -- I THINK RIGHT NOW
AT THIS MOMENT IN HISTORY,
IT IS INCUMBENT UPON CHRISTIANS TO KNOW
THE WHOLE CHRIST, OBVIOUSLY TO PRAY AND MEDITATE,
AND READ DEEPLY ON THOSE GOSPEL PASSAGES THAT ARE
SO BEAUTIFUL AND CONSOLING OF HIS PREACHING,
AND HIS TEACHING, AND HIS MIRACLES, AND HIS HEALING,
AND HIS RESURRECTION.
BUT NOT TO SKIP OVER AND AS THE GOSPEL WRITERS DON'T,
I MEAN, ONE-THIRD OF THE GOSPEL OF MARK
IS DEVOTED TO THE 24 HOURS OF JESUS' LIFE
BETWEEN WHEN HE IS ARRESTED AND WHEN HE DIES.
BECAUSE THAT PERIOD OF HIS SUFFERING IS SO IMPORTANT.
SO, A FRIEND TAUGHT ME THIS PRAYER,
TEACH ME YOUR SUFFERING.
YOU KNOW, AND I'M A CATHOLIC SO WE LIKE,
WE LIKE OUR LATIN. [ SPEAKING LATIN ]
IS THE LATIN AND THE LATIN IS NICE
BECAUSE THAT WORD PASSIO MEANS BOTH
SUFFERING AND PASSION,
AS IN OUR LORD'S, OUR LORD'S PASSION.
SO GOING MORE DEEPLY INTO MEDITATING ON
WHAT OUR LORD SUFFERED FOR US
WHICH IS NOT PRETTY, RIGHT?
WHICH INVOLVED BLOOD
AND SWEAT AND TEARS AND GRIT,
BUT HE DID THAT OUT OF LOVE FOR US.
THAT'S PRECISELY WHAT HE DID IN ORDER TO REDEEM US.
AND WE HAVE -- WE HAVE TO LEARN FROM THAT AS CHRISTIANS
BECAUSE IN THIS LIFE, ON THIS SIDE OF ETERNITY
BEFORE WE ARE GLORIFIED WITH GOD IN HEAVEN,
WE'RE GOING TO ENCOUNTER THE CROSS, RIGHT?
IT'S NOT THAT JESUS SUFFERED SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE TO,
IT'S THAT HE SUFFERED SO THAT WE CAN FIND HIM
THERE IN HIS SUFFERING.
WHEN WE ENCOUNTER THE CROSS, HE WHO WOULD FOLLOW ME
MUST DENY HIMSELF,
TAKE UP HIS CROSS AND FOLLOW ME
IS ONE OF THOSE DIFFICULT PASSAGES IN THE GOSPEL
THAT WE'RE MAYBE INCLINED TO GLOSS OVER
OR LIKE, MAYBE HE DIDN'T REALLY MEAN THAT
AND HE'S GOING TO, HE'S GOING TO FIX THIS.
HE'S GOING TO CURE MY LOVED ONE OF CANCER,
OR HE'S GOING TO TAKE THIS,
YOU KNOW, PERIOD OF UNEMPLOYMENT AWAY FROM ME.
AND WE SHOULD PRAY FOR THAT.
WE SHOULD PRAY FOR A CURE, AND MIRACLES STILL DO HAPPEN
AND CURES STILL DO HAPPEN.
BUT SOMETIMES GOD DOESN'T GRANT US THE CURE.
SOMETIMES WHAT HE GRANTS US IS THE GRACE
TO PICK UP THAT CROSS AND CARRY IT WITH HIM
AND TO LEARN HOW TO SUFFER
FOR THE SAKE OF THE TRUTH, TO LEARN HOW TO SUFFER
FOR THE SAKE OF BEING ABLE TO MINISTER TO OTHERS,
AND CARE FOR OTHERS AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER
AS HE TAUGHT US TO DO.
I THINK THIS IS A LESSON THAT PERHAPS
WE NEED TO TAKE AWAY FROM THAT PERIOD OF COVID,
THAT CHRISTIANS NEED TO GO MORE DEEPLY INTO
OUR LORD'S PASSION, TO PRAY THIS PRAYER,
TEACH ME YOUR SUFFERING, TEACH ME YOUR PASSION.
[ SPEAKING LATIN ]
TEACH ME TO KNOW YOU, NOT JUST IN THE JOYFUL TIMES.
OBVIOUSLY WE HAVE TO FIND HIM THERE.
HE WANTS US TO FIND HIM, YOU KNOW,
IN THE BEAUTIFUL SUNSET, IN THE TRANQUIL MOMENTS,
IN THE MOMENTS OF ELATION AND JOY.
BUT ALSO THAT OUR JOY IS AT TIMES ROOTED
IN THE SHAPE OF THE CROSS.
AND WE HAVE TO PRAY FOR THE GRACE TO KNOW CHRIST,
TO KNOW THE WHOLE CHRIST, INCLUDING THE SUFFERING CHRIST.
BECAUSE IN THIS WORLD WE'RE GOING TO
ENCOUNTER CHALLENGES AND DIFFICULTIES
AND THAT'S PRECISELY WHEN OUR FAITH IS TESTED,
AND WHEN WE NEED TO FIND HIM THERE
IN HIS LONELINESS, IN HIS, YOU KNOW,
BEING ABANDONED BY ALL OF HIS FRIENDS BUT ONE.
YOU KNOW, JOHN WAS THE ONLY ONE OF THE 12 APOSTLES
THERE WITH MARY AT THE FOOT OF THE CROSS,
AS THE GOSPEL OF JOHN
DESCRIBES ALL THE OTHERS FLED IN FEAR.
HOW DO WE BECOME THE KIND OF DISCIPLES WHO WILL
ACCOMPANY HIM EVEN THERE TO THE FOOT OF THE CROSS
AND STAND BY AND SUFFER WITH HIM.
CHRISTIANS TALK ABOUT THE WORD COMPASSION.
WHAT DOES THE WORD MEAN LITERALLY?
COMPASSIO, THE ROOT,
LITERALLY MEANS TO SUFFER WITH.
SO, YOU KNOW, BEING COMPASSIONATE ISN'T JUST
BEING KIND AND CARING, BUT IT'S WILLING TO BEAR
ONE ANOTHER'S BURDENS.
AND IT'S WILLING AT TIMES TO SUFFER
FOR THE SAKE OF THE GOSPEL.
THE HIGHEST FORM OF THAT BEING OBVIOUSLY PEOPLE
WHO HAVE GIVEN THEIR LIVES, LITERALLY THE MARTYRS
WHO HAVE GIVEN THEIR LIVES FOR THE SAKE OF THE GOSPEL.
INSTEAD OF, YOU KNOW, RATHER THAN RENOUNCE MY FAITH,
RATHER THAN RENOUNCE MY DEVOTION, MY BELIEF IN CHRIST,
RATHER THAN RENOUNCE THE TRUTH,
I'M GOING TO GIVE UP
YOU KNOW, THE HIGHEST BODILY GOOD,
WHICH IS MY HUMAN LIFE.
SO CHRISTIANS ARE CALLED TO HEAL THE SICK.
WE'RE CALLED OBVIOUSLY TO MITIGATE DISEASE.
WE DON'T EMBRACE SUFFERING AS A GOOD IN ITSELF, RIGHT,
YOU KNOW, WE CAN STILL CRY OUT AND COMPLAIN
TO GOD WHEN WE SUFFER.
SO, IT'S OKAY.
EVEN OUR LORD, YOU KNOW, BEFORE HIS PASSION, PRAYED
YOU KNOW, FATHER, IF IT'S YOUR WILL,
TAKE THIS CUP FROM ME,
BUT THEN THAT PRAYER WAS COUPLED WITH,
BUT NOT MY WILL BUT THINE BE DONE.
SO OUR LORD IN HIS HUMANITY
NATURALLY RECOILED FROM THE SUFFERING
THAT HE WAS ABOUT TO FACE.
BUT HE ALSO EMBRACED IT OUT OF HIS REDEMPTIVE LOVE
FOR US AND THAT'S THE DISPOSITION
THAT WE WANT TO CULTIVATE, I THINK,
AS FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
YOU KNOW, I KEPT THINKING ABOUT THE APOSTLE PAUL,
BECAUSE HE TALKS A LOT ABOUT SUFFERING
AND THERE'S THIS UNDERSTANDING THAT HE WOULD ALWAYS SAY,
I SUFFER FOR YOUR SAKE.
THERE WAS THIS UNDERSTANDING THAT THE
SUFFERING THAT HE ENDURED WAS FOR THE GOOD
AND THE EXPANSION OF GOD'S KINGDOM.
>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.
>> PAUL SAYS IN PHILIPPIANS, HE ACTUALLY
HITS ON THAT VERY POINT.
HE SAYS I WANT TO KNOW CHRIST, BUT HE SAYS
THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION, BUT HE ALSO SAYS
THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SUFFERINGS.
AND SO PAUL ACTUALLY ENCOMPASSES
KNOWING THE FULLNESS OF CHRIST,
NOT JUST IN THE GLORY AND THE RESURRECTION,
NOT JUST IN THE POWER THAT RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD,
BUT ALSO THE SUFFERING.
AND WHAT I LOVE IS THAT
HE SAYS, YOU KNOW, OUR PRESENT SUFFERINGS,
AND HE SUFFERED GREATLY, YOU KNOW,
WHEN I THINK ABOUT MY LIFE COMPARED TO HIS,
SHIPWRECKED AND BEATINGS AND JAILING FOR YEARS.
>> STONING.
>> I MEAN, HE GOT BEHEADED AT THE END OF HIS LIFE.
BUT HE SAYS THAT, HE HAD THIS REVELATION FROM GOD
WHERE HE SAID OUR PRESENT SUFFERINGS
ARE SHORT AND SMALL COMPARED TO THE GLORY,
THE WEIGHT OF GLORY THAT IS IN STORE.
AND SO WE HAVE TO HAVE AS THE CHURCH,
WE HAVE TO HAVE THIS HEAVENLY PERSPECTIVE
THAT DRIVES US UNDERSTANDING THAT THIS LIFE
IS SHORT AND TEMPORAL.
BUT IT WILL AFFECT ETERNITY, WHAT WE DO
ON THIS EARTH;
AND THAT WE NEED TO BE OBEDIENT.
WHATEVER THE PRICE THAT WE HAVE TO PAY.
HE PAID THE BIGGEST PRICE FOR US AND THAT
THROUGH HIS SUFFERING,
HE ENABLED US TO BE ABLE TO HAVE RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM.
AND SO EVEN WHEN WE SUFFER FOR HIM,
WE ARE NEVER SUPPOSED TO DO IT ALONE.
HE'S ALWAYS THERE WITH US AND GIVING US THE GRACE
THAT WE NEED IN THOSE HARD TIMES.
>> JUST SO -- AND PAUL REALIZED BECAUSE OF
THE GRACES THAT WERE GIVEN TO HIM AND THE VISIONS THAT
WERE GIVEN TO HIM, THAT THE PRIZE THAT AWAITS US
IS SO GLORIOUS, SO BEYOND OUR DESCRIPTION,
THAT WHATEVER SUFFERINGS WE ENDURE IN THIS LIFE,
AND THIS IS NOT TO TRIVIALIZE HORRIFYING THINGS.
I'M A PSYCHIATRIST, I GO KNEE-DEEP INTO
PEOPLE'S SUFFERINGS EVERY DAY.
AND MANY PEOPLE HAVE SUFFERED UNSPEAKABLE HORRORS,
FROM TORTURE TO CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE,
TO, YOU KNOW, THINGS THAT ARE JUST
SO HARD FOR US TO EVEN CONTEMPLATE AS HUMAN BEINGS.
AND NOT TO TRIVIALIZE ANY OF THOSE THINGS,
BUT EVEN THEN, WHATEVER WE SUFFER IN THIS LIFE
IS NOTHING COMPARED TO THE GLORY
THAT AWAITS US.
IF WE SUFFER IN FAITH, IF WE GO TO CHRIST,
IF WE ARE UNITED TO HIM ON THE CROSS IN THAT SUFFERING.
THIS LIFE IS THE BLINK OF AN EYE,
AND IT WILL BE GONE SOON.
AND IF WE PUT, IF WE PUT ALL OF OUR HOPE
IN WORLDLY HAPPINESS AND SUCCESS ACCORDING TO WORLDLY METRICS,
AND HEALTH AND WEALTH AND CONTENTMENT
IN THIS LIFE,
FIRST OF ALL, WE'RE NOT GOING TO FIND THAT.
>> YEAH.
>> OUR HEARTS ARE NOT GOING TO BE SATISFIED
BY WHAT THIS WORLD HAS TO OFFER,
BUT WE'RE ALSO GOING TO GIVE UP SOMETHING
THAT IS SO MUCH MORE,
YOU KNOW, INFINITELY MORE GREAT
THAN ANYTHING THAT WE COULD IMAGINE HERE.
SO THAT PERSPECTIVE OF ETERNITY WHICH PAUL HAS,
WHICH HE TEACHES US IN HIS LETTERS
IN THE NEW TESTAMENT,
WHICH MANY OF THE OTHER CHRISTIAN MYSTICS AND SAINTS
WHO WERE CLOSE TO GOD WOULD TELL US
THAT IT IS WORTHWHILE.
WHATEVER YOU'RE GOING THROUGH RIGHT NOW
WHICH MAY SEEM OVERWHELMING,
WHICH MAY SEEM LIKE TOO MUCH TO HANDLE,
NUMBER ONE, GOD WILL GIVE YOU
THE GRACE TO DO IT.
AND NUMBER TWO, THIS IS PREPARING YOU
FOR AN ETERNAL WEIGHT OF GLORY
THAT IS BEYOND ANYTHING THAT YOU CAN IMAGINE,
AND THAT'S WHERE OUR ULTIMATE HOPE LIES.
>> AND ALSO WHAT CAME TO ME WAS
HOW EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US IS STRATEGICALLY PUT
WHERE WE ARE FOR A REASON,
AND GOD GIFTS US WITH TALENTS AND ABILITIES.
AND SO GOD GAVE YOU THE INTELLIGENCE
THAT YOU HAVE AND THE ABILITY TO PRACTICE MEDICINE,
AND HE PUT YOU IN THIS FIELD AND YOU HAD
A DECISION EITHER TO COMPLY AND GO WITH
KIND OF LIKE THE WAY EVERYONE ELSE WAS GOING,
OR TAKE A STAND.
AND IT'S SO IMPORTANT THAT EVEN THOUGH
WE MIGHT SUFFER,
TO BE OBEDIENT AND TO BE STEWARDING THE GIFTS
THAT GOD GIVES US IN THE SPHERES OF INFLUENCE,
IN THE PLACES THAT WE'RE CALLED TO BE,
AND TO USE OUR VOICE TO ADVOCATE.
AND LIKE GOD SAYS, THE CHURCH
TO BE SALT AND LIGHT IN THE WORLD,
NOT TO HIDE UNDER THAT BASKET,
BUT TO SHINE THE LIGHT OF CHRIST,
AND TO NOT COWER UNDERNEATH THE AGENDAS
OF THE WORLD, BUT TO STAND FIRM IN CHRIST.
AND THE CHURCH IS THE MORAL AUTHORITY IN THE EARTH.
YOU KNOW, JESUS GAVE THE HIS AUTHORITY TO THE CHURCH
AND HE'S CALLED US TO BE THAT SALT AND LIGHT.
AND SO WHEN WE STAND BEFORE CHRIST,
WE'RE GOING TO GIVE AN ACCOUNT OF OUR LIFE.
AND I WANT TO BE ABLE TO SAY
THE SPHERES OF INFLUENCE YOU GAVE ME,
THE GIFTS YOU GAVE ME, I STEWARDED
AND I WAS OBEDIENT.
EVEN IN THE TIME OF SUFFERING AND HARDSHIP,
I STOOD FIRM FOR YOU, FOR YOUR KINGDOM,
AND FOR YOUR CHURCH.
>> AND OUR LORD WAS CLEAR ALSO,
I MEAN THE GOSPEL TURNS UPSIDE-DOWN
MANY OF OUR HUMAN NOTIONS OF WHAT SUCCESS MEANS,
OF WHAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT.
YOU KNOW, JESUS WASN'T KIDDING
WHEN HE SAID THE LAST WILL BE FIRST
AND THE FIRST WILL BE LAST.
SO, YOU KNOW, MANY PEOPLE IN THE AUDIENCE MAY BE THINKING
WELL, YOU KNOW, SOMEONE WHO HAS A MICROPHONE
AND A PODCAST AND AN INFLUENCE
LIKE REBECCA AND HER GUESTS, YOU KNOW,
THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS
AND TO SPREAD THE GOSPEL AND TO, YOU KNOW,
DEAL WITH AND CONTEND WITH THE PROBLEMS OF THE WORLD.
BUT, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT --
I'M NOT DIRECTOR AT THE NIH, OR I'M NOT
A THIS OR A THAT.
SO WHAT CAN I DO?
AND I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT
YOU KNOW, FOR ALL PEOPLE TO REALIZE AND ESPECIALLY
ALL BAPTIZED CHRISTIANS TO REALIZE,
ALL OF US ARE PART OF CHRIST'S MYSTICAL BODY.
ALL OF US ARE PART OF THE CHURCH.
ALL OF US HAVE A ROLE TO EVANGELIZE.
ALL OF US HAVE A MISSION THAT HAS BEEN GIVEN TO GOD --
GIVEN TO US BY GOD, THAT NO ONE ELSE CAN DO.
AND IF WE FAIL TO DO IT,
IT'S NOT GOING TO BE DONE.
AND THAT MISSION MAY NOT BE
GOING OFF TO A FOREIGN LAND.
GOD CALLS SOME PEOPLE TO DO THAT, BUT IT MAY BE
JUST BEING SALT AND LIGHT AND LEAVEN
RIGHT WHERE YOU ARE IN YOUR ORDINARY WORK.
YOU'RE AN UBER DRIVER, YOU ENCOUNTER MANY PEOPLE
DURING THE DAY THAT YOU CAN HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH.
AND, YOU KNOW, WITH NATURALNESS AND WITH FRIENDLINESS,
THERE MAY BE OPPORTUNITIES THERE,
ESPECIALLY IF YOU PRAY FOR EVERY PERSON THAT SITS
IN THE BACK SEAT OF YOUR UBER CAR.
PRAY FOR THEM BEFORE THEY GET IN,
PRAY FOR THEM AFTER THEY LEAVE.
YOU'LL SEE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT OPENS DOORS
TO HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH THEM,
TO SHARE YOUR FAITH WITH THEM IN A WAY
THAT'S NOT PREACHY OR, YOU KNOW, THUMPING ON YOUR BIBLE
OR WHATEVER, BUT IN ANY PROFESSIONAL CONTEXT.
JUST THROUGH YOUR FAMILIAL RELATIONSHIPS,
THROUGH YOUR FRIENDSHIPS, THROUGH YOUR RELATIONSHIPS
WITH YOUR COLLEAGUES AT WORK,
TRYING TO DO YOUR WORK WELL ON A HUMAN LEVEL
SO THAT YOU HAVE SOMETHING GOOD TO OFFER TO GOD.
DOING IT WITH HONESTY AND INTEGRITY.
THIS HAS ENORMOUS INFLUENCE ON THE PEOPLE
AROUND YOU.
AND, AGAIN, IF THE LAST SHALL BE FIRST
THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON AT YOUR CHURCH
MAY NOT BE THE PERSON WHO'S GETTING UP
AND PREACHING ON SUNDAYS,
OR RUNNING SOME BIG MINISTRY THAT LOOKS LIKE
IT'S IMPACTING THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.
I'M SURE THAT WORK IS IMPORTANT, BUT MAYBE
IT'S THE COGNITIVELY DISABLED PERSON
WHO'S BROUGHT IN ON A WHEELCHAIR
AND WHO DOESN'T SING VERY WELL
BECAUSE OF THEIR IMPAIRMENTS, BUT WHO IS
ACTUALLY PRAYING MORE DEEPLY AND WITH MORE SINCERITY
AND CLOSER TO CHRIST.
AGAIN, THE CLOSER TO THE SUFFERING CHRIST.
CLOSER TO CHRIST IN HIS WEAKNESS ON THE CROSS.
THAN ANY OTHER MEMBER OF THE CHURCH.
AND IN HEAVEN WE'RE GOING TO BE SURPRISED, RIGHT,
THAT THE PERSON WITH THE MICROPHONE IS
MAYBE, YOU KNOW, ENJOYING GOD'S GLORY,
BUT PERHAPS A LITTLE LESS GLORY THAN THE PERSON
WHO IN THIS LIFE HAS NOT BEEN GLORIFIED.
SO I THINK IF YOU READ THE GOSPELS CAREFULLY,
YOU SEE THAT OUR OWN HUMAN CALCULATIONS ARE
VERY OFTEN TOTALLY BACKWARDS.
AND THE PEOPLE THAT THE WORLD IGNORES AND DISCARDS
AND SEES AS SOMEHOW LESS THAN, IN GOD'S EYES,
MAYBE HAVE THE HIGHEST PLACE IN HIS KINGDOM.
>> IT'S SO TRUE, THE WAY THAT GOD'S KINGDOM
IS SO DIFFERENT FROM THIS WORLD.
AND I THINK THAT'S SUCH A GREAT WORD
TO SHARE WITH OUR VIEWERS, THAT FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE,
YOU MIGHT SEE YOUR LIFE AND YOU MIGHT NOT SEE
THE VALUE IN WHAT YOU'RE DOING,
BUT IF YOU WOULD JUST ASK GOD,
HOW DO I STEWARD WHAT YOU'VE GIVEN ME WELL.
AND IF YOU WOULD JUST ASK TO SEE THINGS
FROM HIS PERSPECTIVE,
YOU WOULD REALIZE THAT WHAT YOU'RE DOING
IS SO IMPORTANT.
THAT THE STAY-AT-HOME MOMS
OR THE FATHERS LOVING THEIR CHILDREN,
THAT'S SOME OF THE GREATEST WORK YOU CAN DO.
THE WORLD MIGHT NOT APPLAUD IT,
BUT IN THE EYES OF GOD, YOU KNOW, THIS KIND OF WORK
IS SO IMPORTANT.
AND THAT ANYTHING YOU DO,
YOU CAN HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE PEOPLE AROUND YOU.
AND WHAT I LOVED, WHEN YOU TALKED ABOUT THE DISCIPLES
AND HOW WHEN JESUS DIED, I MEAN,
THEY DID ALL SCATTER AND THEY ALL RAN
EXCEPT FOR ONE.
AND YET WHAT HAPPENS TO THESE DISCIPLES,
WHAT CHANGES THEM?
YOU KNOW, JESUS COMES BACK
AND HE VISITS THEM AFTER HE RESURRECTS,
AND HE TELLS THEM
I HAVE TO LEAVE, BUT I HAVE TO SEND
MY HOLY SPIRIT TO YOU.
AND WE SEE THE DISCIPLES GET BAPTIZED
IN THE HOLY SPIRIT.
AND YOU SEE THIS TRANSFORMATION
RIGHT THEN AND THERE AT PENTECOST.
YOU SEE PETER, WHO HAD BEEN RESTORED AFTER
DENYING CHRIST THREE TIMES,
AND HE STANDS UP AND PREACHES
IN FRONT OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.
AND YOU SEE THESE BOLD DISCIPLES, YOU KNOW.
AND THEN WE FIND OUT THAT THEY ALL, EXCEPT FOR ONE,
WERE MARTYRED IN SOME FASHION.
AND THEY WENT ALL OVER THE WORLD
AND PREACHED THE GOSPEL.
AND SO IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT THEY DID
IN THEIR OWN STRENGTH.
BUT IT WAS, RATHER, THEY ALLOWED THE HOLY SPIRIT
TO FILL THEM AND THEY EMBRACED
THE FULLNESS OF CHRIST
AND THEY SURRENDERED THEIR LIVES
AND THEY SAID, WHATEVER YOU WOULD HAVE ME DO,
I WOULD DO.
AND IT'S IN THAT GRACE THAT OUR LORD GIVES US
THAT WE'RE ABLE TO FULFILL THE CALLING.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
AND I THINK THE THING THAT PREPARED THEM FOR THAT
WAS PRECISELY THAT -- THE HUMILIATION, PERHAPS.
THEY THEY HAD TO LEARN HOW TO BECOME NOTHING,
HOW TO BE, HOW TO BE EMPTY.
>> THAT'S TRUE.
>> SO THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT COULD FILL THEM, RIGHT?
SO BEFORE CHRIST'S DEATH,
WHAT ARE THEY ARGUING ABOUT?
FIRST OF ALL, LIKE IF WE'RE IN CHARGE HERE
AND WE WANT TO CREATE A WORLDWIDE MOVEMENT
AND A CHURCH THAT'S GOING TO LAST UNTIL THE END OF TIME,
THESE ARE PROBABLY NOT THE 12 GUYS
THAT I WOULD HAVE PICKED, RIGHT?
THEY'RE NOT LIKE THE SENATOR THAT, YOU KNOW,
LET'S GET A ROMAN SENATOR WHO'S REALLY POWERFUL.
LET'S GET A CEO.
LET'S GET REALLY WEALTHY AND EDUCATED PEOPLE
WHO ARE, YOU KNOW, IN CHARGE OF THINGS.
NO, THESE WERE POOR AND HUMBLE FISHERMEN.
>> YEAH.
>> THEY WERE, YOU KNOW,
A TAX COLLECTOR DESPISED BY THE JEWS
BECAUSE HE WAS WORKING FOR THE ENEMY AND SO FORTH.
AND SO THIS RAGTAG BUNCH OF GUYS,
AND EVEN THEN THEY, YOU KNOW, THEY WERE
ARROGANT AND PROUD AND ARGUING ABOUT WHO WAS
GOING TO BE GREATEST IN THE KINGDOM AND HAVING
THESE JUST RIDICULOUS SQUABBLES, RIGHT?
WELL, WE LAUGH AND SAY THEY'RE RIDICULOUS BECAUSE WE KNOW
THE END OF THE STORY, BUT WE PROBABLY WOULD HAVE
DONE THE SAME THING, RIGHT?
>> MM-HMMM.
>> AND SO THEY THEY HAD TO BE HUMBLED
AND HUMILIATED.
YOU KNOW, ST. PETER DENYING OUR LORD THREE TIMES
AND THEN GOING OUT AND WEEPING BITTERLY BECAUSE HE KNEW
HIS OWN WEAKNESS AND HIS OWN LACK OF FIDELITY
AND HIS OWN SINFULNESS.
AND THEN CHRIST AND THAT BEAUTIFUL
RESURRECTION SCENE IN THE GOSPEL OF JOHN,
SITTING WITH HIM ON THE SHORE OF THE BEACH
AFTER THE MIRACULOUS CATCH OF FISH
AND THEN ASKING HIM THREE TIMES,
SIMON, SON OF JOHN, DO YOU LOVE ME?
YES, LORD.
YOU KNOW THAT I LOVE YOU, RESTORING HIM
TO THAT FRIENDSHIP IS THREEFOLD.
DENIAL WAS CORRECTED AND RESTORED
BY THIS THREEFOLD AFFIRMATION OF HIS LOVE FOR CHRIST.
AND SO I THINK IT'S THE SAME FOR US,
THAT WE NEED TO BEGIN FROM A POSITION OF HUMILITY,
A POSITION OF EMPTINESS,
A RECOGNITION THAT, YOU KNOW, ANYTHING GOOD
I HAVE TO OFFER TO GOD
IS SOMETHING THAT GOD ALREADY GAVE ME.
WHETHER THAT'S GIFTS ON THE NATURAL LEVEL OF
JUST MY TALENTS AND ABILITIES,
OR THE GRACE THAT HE GAVE ME TO ALLOW ME TO DO THIS THING.
THE ONLY THING THAT I HAVE THAT'S TRULY MY OWN
TO GIVE TO GOD THAT DIDN'T FIRST COME FROM HIM,
THE ONLY THING THAT'S TRULY MY OWN IS MY SIN, RIGHT?
THAT'S ULTIMATELY ALL THAT I HAVE
TO OFFER TO GOD IS MY SIN.
SO THAT HUMBLE RECOGNITION OF, YOU KNOW,
MY OWN EMPTINESS AND MY OWN SINFULNESS
IS, I THINK, THE PRECONDITION FOR
RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT.
PRIDE IS THE GREAT ENEMY HERE.
AND, YOU KNOW, HAVING A TV CAMERA POINTED AT YOU
AND A MICROPHONE AND BRIGHT LIGHTS AND SO FORTH
IS AN INDUCEMENT TO THINK,
HEY, MAYBE I'M IMPORTANT.
MAYBE I HAVE SOMETHING TO TELL THE WORLD.
AND, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TO STEP BACK AND RECOGNIZE
NO, ANYTHING GOOD I HAVE TO SAY,
ANY TRUTH I UTTERED,
ULTIMATELY, FIRST, COMES FROM GOD.
AND HE GAVE ME AN INTELLECT TO UNDERSTAND IT
AND HE GAVE ME, YOU KNOW, A WILL TO PURSUE,
AND HE GAVE ME THE GRACE
AND ALL THE OTHER THINGS IN MY LIFE
THAT HAVE GOTTEN ME TO THIS POINT.
THIS IS, YOU KNOW, NONE OF THIS IS MY OWN DOING.
AND I THINK THAT GOES, THAT GOES FOR ALL OF US.
THE STARTING POINT HAS TO BE HUMILITY, A RECOGNITION
OF OUR NOTHINGNESS BEFORE GOD.
AND THAT'S WHERE THE HOLY SPIRIT
CAN COME IN AND FILL US WITH HIS GRACE
AND ALLOW US TO DO THINGS THAT, HUMANLY,
OTHERWISE WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE.
>> THAT'S SO GOOD.
AND, YOU KNOW, SEGUEING INTO THIS NEXT TOPIC,
JUST THINKING ABOUT HOW IMPORTANT
HAVING A CHRISTIAN WORLDVIEW IS,
HOW IMPORTANT ETHICS ARE,
I REMEMBER STUDYING ETHICS IN SCHOOL, AND HOW WE NEED
TO HAVE AN ETHICAL WAY OF HANDLING THINGS
LIKE MEDICINE.
AND I REMEMBER READING THIS BOOK IN COLLEGE
BY C.S. LEWIS CALLED, THE ABOLITION OF MAN.
AND AT THE END HE HAS THIS WHOLE THING
WHERE HE TALKS ABOUT SCIENCE.
AND C.S. LEWIS BASICALLY WARNS THAT SCIENCE
IS PROBABLY GOING TO GO INTO A DIRECTION
THAT WOULD BE MORE HARMFUL THAN GOOD;
HOW SCIENCE HAS THAT POTENTIAL.
AND READING THAT WHOLE BOOK IN THIS DAY AND AGE
WAS JUST MINDBLOWING, SEEING THE THINGS THAT HE TALKED ABOUT
PLAY OUT IN REAL TIME.
AND ALL THAT BEING SAID,
WE'RE NOW HAVING -- WE'RE IN THIS AREA
WHERE WE HAVE TRANSHUMANISM, AI,
AND WE'RE SEEING SCIENCE POTENTIALLY BEING USED
FOR THINGS THAT GOD NEVER INTENDED FOR US TO DO.
AND WE'RE SEEING PEOPLE BASICALLY PLAY GOD
AND WE WERE NEVER SUPPOSED TO PLAY GOD.
SO CAN YOU TALK ABOUT TRANSHUMANISM
FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE?
WHAT IS DRIVING IT IN THIS DAY AND AGE?
>> YEAH, LET ME SAY A WORD FIRST ABOUT
THE ABOLITION OF MAN.
THANK YOU FOR MENTIONING THAT BOOK.
I REGARD THAT AS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT BOOKS
OF THE 20TH CENTURY.
IT'S A SHORT, LITTLE BOOK.
IT'S FAIRLY ACCESSIBLE IF YOU'RE NOT USED
TO READING PHILOSOPHY OR THEOLOGY.
SO I COMMEND IT TO OUR LISTENERS.
AND YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT,
C.S. LEWIS DEFENDS THERE THE IDEA OF
A FUNDAMENTAL MORALITY THAT CAN BE FOUND
ACROSS ALL CULTURES.
OBVIOUSLY IT'S REINFORCED BY CHRISTIAN REVELATION.
AND IN THE LAST CHAPTER HE TALKS ABOUT SOME OF THE DANGERS
COMING DOWN THE PIKE WHERE SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
IS POTENTIALLY GOING TO BE USED TO TRY TO
MAKE SUPER HUMANS.
>> YEAH.
>> AND HE DOESN'T USE THE WORD TRANSHUMANISM,
BUT HE KIND OF, HE KIND OF GESTURES TOWARD
THIS IDEOLOGY THAT'S DEVELOPING
THAT NOW GOES UNDER THE NAME OF TRANSHUMANISM,
WHICH IS THE IDEA OF TAKING HEALTHY PEOPLE
AND USING SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY,
INCLUDING MEDICAL TECHNOLOGY,
AND MAKING THEM BIGGER, FASTER,
STRONGER, SMARTER, SORT OF SUPERHUMAN.
NOT JUST USING SCIENCE AND MEDICINE TO HEAL THE SICK,
BUT TO MAKE WELL PEOPLE QUOTE, UNQUOTE
BETTER THAN WELL.
AND LEWIS PROPOSES IN THAT BOOK THAT
THIS IS ACTUALLY GOING TO GIVE SOME MEN CONTROL
OVER OTHER MEN, UNPRECEDENTED LEVELS OF CONTROL,
USING SORT OF EUGENIC GENE-EDITING TECHNIQUES,
FOR EXAMPLE, TO TRY TO CREATE A MASTER RACE
ESSENTIALLY PUTS SOME PEOPLE IN CHARGE OF
WHO CAN REPRODUCE, WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE CAN BE BORN,
WHO NEEDS TO BE DISCARDED BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT GOOD ENOUGH,
BECAUSE THEY'RE DISABLED OR THEY'RE JUST
SIMPLY, YOU KNOW, NOT THE RIGHT KIND OF PEOPLE
OR DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT SKIN COLOR OR WHATEVER.
C.S. LEWIS WROTE, MANY PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT
HIS NARNIA BOOKS, BUT HE ALSO WROTE A SPACE TRILOGY,
THREE SCIENCE FICTION BOOKS --
>> I DIDN'T KNOW THIS.
>> FOR GROWNUPS, YEAH.
AND THE THIRD BOOK IN THAT SPACE TRILOGY IS CALLED
THAT HIDEOUS STRENGTH.
AND HE ONCE SAID THAT THAT HIDEOUS STRENGTH
ISTHE ABOLITION OF MAN
IN FICTIONAL FORM.
AND THE BOOK IS BASICALLY ABOUT
A GROUP OF SCIENTISTS THAT TAKE OVER A UNIVERSITY TOWN
IN ENGLAND, THINK OXFORD OR CAMBRIDGE.
AND THEY PULL AWAY ALL THE BRAINPOWER FROM THE UNIVERSITY
AND START THIS NEW SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH INSTITUTE
CALLED THE N-I-C-E,
THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR COORDINATED EXPERIMENTS.
AND NO ONE KNOWS QUITE WHAT THEY'RE DOING THERE,
BUT BASICALLY WHAT YOU FIND OUT IN THE COURSE OF THE STORY
IS THEY'RE THEY'RE TRYING TO REVIVIFY THIS HUMAN HEAD
OF A DECAPITATED CRIMINAL.
AND LIKE BASICALLY TRYING TO BRING IT TO LIFE AGAIN.
AND THEY USE IT AS A KIND OF ORACLE
TO PROPHESY AND TO TELL THE TRUTH
AND TO START TO GUIDE AND DIRECT THEIR ACTIONS.
AND BASICALLY, TO CUT A LONG STORY SHORT,
AND SPOILER ALERT, AT THE END OF THE BOOK,
YOU REALIZE THESE SCIENTISTS ARE NOT BEING
CONTROLLED BY THE PRINCIPLES OF SCIENCE.
THEY'RE ACTUALLY BEING CONTROLLED BY DEMONIC FORCES
THAT ARE ACTING THROUGH THIS WHOLE PROJECT
THAT THEY'RE ENGAGED IN.
SO ANYWAY, THAT'S ANOTHER BOOK
THAT PEOPLE SHOULD READ IF THEY FIND
THE ABOLITION OF MAN SORT OF TOO PHILOSOPHICAL,
READ THE NOVEL.
IT JUST TELLS THE SAME PRINCIPLES THROUGH
THE MECHANISM OF STORYTELLING.
BUT THAT THAT BRINGS US TO AI.
AM I SUGGESTING THAT AI IS CONTROLLED BY DEMONIC FORCES
AND IT'S GOING TO LEAD US DOWN A VERY DARK PATH,
NO, NOT NECESSARILY.
BUT I THINK THERE ARE SOME DANGERS WITH AI.
AND ONE OF THE DANGERS THAT I SEE WITH AI
IS BASICALLY RATHER THAN USING AI AS A TOOL,
AND I THINK THERE ARE GOOD AND APPROPRIATE
AND BENEFICIAL USES OF AI.
I USE GROK FOR SOME OF MY RESEARCH.
I DON'T LET IT WRITE MY BOOKS OR MY ARTICLES FOR ME,
BUT I USE IT TO TRACK DOWN CITATIONS
AND, YOU KNOW, SO ON AND SO FORTH.
SO THERE ARE VERY USEFUL THINGS THAT
THIS TECHNOLOGY CAN DO.
BUT IF WE SHIFT FROM TREATING IT LIKE A TOOL
TO TREATING IT LIKE AN IDOL OR AN ORACLE OF TRUTH,
I THINK THAT'S VERY DANGEROUS.
SO THIS BIBLICAL CONCEPT OF AN IDOL
WHICH RUNS THROUGHOUT THE OLD TESTAMENT,
WHAT IS AN IDOL?
AN IDOL IS SOMETHING THAT WE CREATE
WITH OUR OWN HANDS.
IT'S THE WORK OF OUR HANDS.
IT'S AN ARTIFACT OR MAYBE A TOOL THAT WE THEN
ELEVATE TO THE STATUS OF SOMETHING ABOVE US.
SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO GIVE US ANSWERS.
SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO TELL US WHAT TO DO OR HOW TO LIVE.
SOMETHING THAT'S EVEN GOING TO SORT OF REDEEM US
AND SOLVE ALL OF OUR PROBLEMS FOR US.
AND WE BEGIN TO WORSHIP THIS THING
THAT IS THE WORK OF OUR OWN HANDS
AS THOUGH IT'S A GOD.
AND THE PROBLEM WITH AN IDOL IS
IT ALWAYS COMES BACK TO BITE US IN THE END, RIGHT?
IT ENDS UP UNDERMINING OUR HUMANITY.
IT ENDS UP UNDERMINING HUMAN SOCIETY
AND HUMAN FLOURISHING AND LEADING US AWAY
FROM TRUTH AND GOODNESS AND BEAUTY,
AND ULTIMATELY AWAY FROM GOD.
WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH AI?
SO, I HAVE PATIENTS WHO HAVE GONE TO SOME OF THESE,
YOU KNOW, CHAT GPT AND OTHER LARGE LANGUAGE MODEL AI'S
AND ASK QUESTIONS LIKE, WHAT ARE THE COMMON SIDE EFFECTS
OF THIS ANTIDEPRESSANT MEDICATION?
AND, YOU KNOW, ASSUMING THAT THE CHAT GPT
OR GROK OR WHATEVER IS DRAWING ON REPUTABLE SOURCES
OF ACCURATE INFORMATION,
THAT MIGHT BE A WAY TO DISTILL INFORMATION
ABOUT THE SIDE EFFECTS OF THIS MEDICATION.
AND, YOU KNOW, AS LONG AS THEY CONSULT WITH THEIR DOCTOR,
AND KIND OF RUN IT BY THEM, I DON'T THINK
THAT'S A BAD USE OF AI.
WHAT WORRIES ME IS WHEN I HAVE OTHER PATIENTS
WHO WILL GO TO CHAT GPT
AND ASK, GIVEN MY MEDICAL HISTORY
SHOULD I TAKE THIS ANTIDEPRESSANT MEDICATION?
HELP ME TO MAKE THIS IMPORTANT LIFE DECISION
THAT REQUIRE, YOU KNOW,
SHOULD REQUIRE CONSULTATION WITH A PHYSICIAN.
AND, YOU KNOW, IMPORTANT WEIGHING OF RISKS AND BENEFITS,
AND FREE AND INFORMED CONSENT WHICH WE
TALKED ABOUT EARLIER IN THE SHOW.
SO TREATING THIS MACHINE ESSENTIALLY AS THOUGH
IT'S AN ORACLE OR, YOU KNOW,
A SOURCE OF LIFE WISDOM FOR ME,
I THINK IS POTENTIALLY VERY DANGEROUS.
BECAUSE WHOEVER'S CONTROLLING THESE ALGORITHMS,
IF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO THESE THINGS FOR WISDOM
AND DIRECTION AND HOW TO LIVE MY LIFE,
WELL, ULTIMATELY, WHOEVER'S PROGRAMMING THESE THINGS
IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO TWEAK THE ALGORITHMS
IN A WAY TO DIRECT PEOPLE'S BEHAVIOR
IN PARTICULAR DIRECTIONS.
AGAIN, C.S. LEWIS' CONCEPT IN
THE ABOLITION OF MAN, THIS TECHNOLOGY,
YOU KNOW, WILL NOT JUST BE MAN'S POWER OVER NATURE,
BUT SOME MEN'S POWER OVER OTHER MEN, RIGHT.
AND SO I THINK THERE'S A DANGER IN GIVING OVER
WHAT SHOULD BE OURS TO RETAIN,
WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, OUR GOD-GIVEN INTELLECT
AND FREE WILL, RIGHT, THAT WHICH HE GAVE US
THAT PERMITS US TO, IN HIS IMAGE AND LIKENESS,
TO KNOW AND LOVE HIM,
TO KNOW AND LOVE AND PURSUE BEAUTY
AND TRUTH AND GOODNESS, AND BASICALLY RELINQUISHING
OUR INTELLECT AND OUR FREEDOM TO POWERS
THAT ARE POTENTIALLY BEYOND OUR CONTROL.
AND ULTIMATELY,
SOURCES OF INFORMATION THAT IN SOME RESPECTS
MAY NOT HAVE OUR BEST INTERESTS IN MIND.
>> YEAH.
>> WHETHER THAT'S SIMPLY BECAUSE OF BAD PROGRAMMING
OR BY DESIGN, BECAUSE WHOEVER IS SHAPING
AND CONTROLLING THE WAY IN WHICH AI IS FUNCTIONING,
IS TRYING TO STEER SOCIETY IN PARTICULAR DIRECTIONS.
>> AND THERE'S THE POTENTIAL OF AI
EVENTUALLY DOING ITS OWN THING.
>> DOING ITS OWN THING
BECAUSE WE DON'T QUITE UNDERSTAND.
>> WE DON'T QUITE -- WE'VE KIND OF LET IT OUT OF THE BOX
AND WE'RE NOT EXACTLY SURE HOW IT'S GOING
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> TO UNFOLD, BUT THERE'S GREAT POTENTIAL
FOR A LOT OF DIFFERENT THINGS.
>> YEAH. I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THESE PROGRAMS
ALREADY SEEM TO BE DOING THINGS THAT WE DON'T
ENTIRELY UNDERSTAND.
AND I DO WANT TO SAY
I DON'T LIKE THE TERM ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.
BECAUSE WHATEVER THIS THING IS,
IT'S NOT ACTUALLY INTELLIGENT.
IT'S NOT ACTUALLY THINKING.
IT'S AGGREGATING INFORMATION AND TRYING TO
PROVIDE ANSWERS FROM STUFF
THAT'S ALREADY OUT THERE
THAT'S BEEN CREATED BY HUMAN BEINGS.
SO, YOU KNOW, WE SHOULD NOT LABOR UNDER THE DELUSION
THAT WE'RE CREATING A SENTIENT BEING THAT HAS
ITS OWN INTELLIGENCE.
IT MAY BE ABLE TO MIMIC VERY CONVINCINGLY
HUMAN INTELLIGENCE, BUT IT'S NOT ACTUALLY THINKING.
IT'S SIMPLY DOING WHAT IT'S PROGRAMMED TO DO.
BUT THE WEIRD THING IS, AS IT'S LEARNING AND AS
ITS PROGRAM IS EVOLVING,
IT'S BEGINNING TO DO THINGS THAT THE PEOPLE WHO
DESIGNED IT DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND.
AND THAT'S A LITTLE WEIRD.
IT DOES FEEL LIKE
WE'VE LET THIS GENIE OUT OF THE BOTTLE.
WE DON'T ENTIRELY UNDERSTAND AND KNOW
WHAT DIRECTION IT'S TAKING US.
AND I THINK THAT'S NOT A GOOD SETUP
FOR HUMAN SOCIETY.
I MEAN, THERE ARE TWISTS AND TURNS IN HISTORY
THAT WE DON'T PLAN AND THAT ARE UNEXPECTED
AND WE HAVE TO, YOU KNOW,
THAT'S PART OF GOD'S PROVIDENTIAL DESIGN.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME IF WE'RE TRYING TO DEVELOP
THINGS THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE TOOLS TO ENHANCE
HUMAN HEALTH AND HUMAN FLOURISHING,
WE SHOULD UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY'RE DOING TO US,
AND WE SHOULD MAINTAIN SOME DEGREE
OF CONTROL OVER THEM
SO THAT THEY CAN -- SO THAT WE CAN GUIDE AND
DIRECT TECHNOLOGY RATHER THAN TECHNOLOGY
GUIDING AND DIRECTING US.
>> EXACTLY.
ANOTHER THING THAT IS GOING ON ALREADY IS,
WELL, SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN TALKED ABOUT A LOT
BECAUSE THERE'S BEEN SO MANY PROBLEMS
PEOPLE ARE HAVING WITH FERTILITY.
NOW WE'RE HAVING IVF AND SURROGACY,
WHICH THERE ARE ETHICAL DILEMMAS IN THAT ALONE.
>> YES.
>> INCLUDING THE FACT THAT PARENTS CAN CREATE
EMBRYOS AND DESTROY THEM.
YOU HAVE THOUSANDS OF EMBRYOS THAT ARE MADE IN YOU,
AND I BELIEVE LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION.
>> YES.
>> SO YOU'RE CREATING A LIFE AND THEN YOU'RE
FREEZING IT AND THEY CAN BE UP THERE
FOR 20-SOMETHING YEARS.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> WHICH IS JUST, I CAN'T EVEN FATHOM THAT
FROM A SPIRITUAL PERSPECTIVE,
HOW AWFUL THAT IS.
AND A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THAT ABOUT IVF.
>> CORRECT.
>> YOU KNOW, THEY JUST THINK, OH, THIS IS GREAT.
WE'RE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE HELPING PEOPLE HAVE CHILDREN,
BUT THERE'S A LOT OF MORAL AND ETHICAL ISSUES,
BUT THERE IS ALSO SOMETHING COMING DOWN THE PIPELINE
WHICH IS CALLED IVG, WHICH IS NOT IN HUMANS YET,
BUT IT HAS BEEN SUCCESSFULLY CONDUCTED IN ANIMALS.
CAN YOU TELL OUR AUDIENCE ABOUT THAT?
>> YES. SO IVG, WHICH STANDS FOR IN VITRO GAMETOGENESIS,
IS ALSO SOMETIMES REFERRED TO AS ARTIFICIAL GAMETES,
AND AS YOU SAID THIS HAS NOT YET BEEN DONE
OR DEVELOPED OR PERFECTED IN HUMAN BEINGS,
BUT IT HAS BEEN DONE IN MICE.
AND GIVEN THAT IT CAN BE DONE IN OTHER MAMMALS,
IT'S NOT UNREASONABLE, CREDIBLE SCIENTISTS
WORKING ON THIS,
WHO ARE NOT NECESSARILY PRONE TO EXAGGERATION
SAY, POSSIBLY SOMETIME IN THE NEXT TEN YEARS.
SO, SOMETIME IN THE FAIRLY NEAR-TERM FUTURE
THIS MIGHT BE AVAILABLE IN HUMANS.
AN ARTIFICIAL GAMETE WOULD INVOLVE
TAKING A CELL, LIKE A SKIN CELL
FROM THE HUMAN BODY AND REPROGRAMMING IT GENETICALLY
TO TURN IT INTO SPERM AND EGGS.
THAT'S WHAT THE WORD GAMETE MEANS.
GAMETE REFERS TO MALE SPERM OR FEMALE OVUM.
NOW WHAT MIGHT THAT MEAN WE COULD DO?
WELL, YOU COULD DO THINGS, FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE
CREATE OVUM OR EGGS FROM MALES,
OR SPERM FROM FEMALES,
AND THAT WOULD PERMIT TWO MALES TO HAVE
A GENETICALLY-RELATED CHILD,
OR TWO FEMALES TO HAVE A GENETICALLY-RELATED CHILD.
SO, YOU KNOW, MANY PEOPLE IN THE LGBT COMMUNITY
ARE PUSHING FOR THIS TECHNOLOGY BECAUSE THEY
WANT TO BE ABLE TO HAVE CHILDREN AS A GAY
OR LESBIAN COUPLE THAT WOULD NOT REQUIRE THAT THE CHILD
HAVE A GENETIC MOTHER AND FATHER,
AS IS, OBVIOUSLY, CURRENTLY THE CASE
AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE
THROUGHOUT HUMAN HISTORY.
SO A RADICAL ALTERATION AND REVISION OF THE IDEA
OF LINEAGE AND THE CREATION OF NEW HUMAN LIFE,
AND THAT EVERY HUMAN BEING, EVEN IF THEY'RE RAISED
BY A SINGLE PARENT OR EVEN IF THEY'RE RAISED BY
A SAME-SEX COUPLE, EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING IN EXISTENCE KNOWS
I CAME ULTIMATELY FROM A MAN AND A WOMAN.
AND, YOU KNOW, HOPEFULLY THEY KNOW THEY ALSO,
THE CREATIVE POWER OF GOD THAT ALLOWED ME
TO COME INTO EXISTENCE.
SO THAT WOULD POTENTIALLY BE RADICALLY REALTERED
BY IVG, OR ARTIFICIAL GAMETES.
OTHER PROPONENTS OF THIS TECHNOLOGY HAVE TALKED ABOUT
THE POSSIBILITY OF
WHAT THEY CALL MULTIPLEX PARENTING,
WHICH IS A PROPOSAL THEY CELEBRATE.
A PROPOSAL THAT I PERSONALLY FIND HORRIFYING.
AND THIS WOULD BE,
LET'S SAY YOU HAVE A GROUP OF FOUR PEOPLE OF ANY GENDER
WHO WANT TO HAVE A GENETICALLY-RELATED CHILD.
YOU TAKE TWO MEMBERS OF THAT FOURSOME,
YOU TAKE SPERM AND EGGS FROM THEM.
YOU CREATE AN EMBRYO IN THE LAB.
YOU EXTRACT EMBRYONIC STEM CELLS FROM THAT EMBRYO
AND CREATE SPERM AND EGGS FROM THAT.
YOU DO THE SAME THING WITH A SECOND DIFFERENT COUPLE,
CREATE AN EMBRYO IN THE LAB,
EXTRACT SPERM AND EGGS.
AND THEN FROM THOSE GAMETES EXTRACTED FROM THOSE EMBRYOS
YOU CREATE YET A THIRD EMBRYO
AND YOU BRING THAT EMBRYO TO BIRTH,
DESTROYING THE FIRST TWO EMBRYOS IN THE PROCESS.
THAT EMBRYO WHO HAS BEEN BROUGHT TO BIRTH
IS GENETICALLY RELATED TO ALL FOUR OF THOSE PEOPLE.
TECHNICALLY, FROM A GENETIC PERSPECTIVE,
THOSE ARE THE PERSON'S GENETIC GRANDPARENTS.
THE PERSON'S PARENTS WERE EMBRYOS THAT WERE CREATED
AND DESTROYED IN A LABORATORY.
AND THEORETICALLY,
YOU COULD RUN THAT CYCLE AS MANY TIMES AS YOU WANT.
SO CREATING EMBRYOS, EXTRACTING EMBRYONIC STEM CELLS,
CREATING GAMETES, CREATING ANOTHER EMBRYO,
EXTRACTING SOME CELLS OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
FINALLY BRINGING AN EMBRYO TO BIRTH WHOSE PARENTS,
GRANDPARENTS, GREAT GRANDPARENTS,
GREAT-GREAT GRANDPARENTS WERE ALL EMBRYOS CREATED
AND DESTROYED IN A LABORATORY.
THE ONLY LIVING RELATIVES THAT PERSON HAS
ARE, YOU KNOW, MULTIPLE GENERATIONS BACK.
AND THE INTERVENING GENERATIONS HAVE BEEN
COMPRESSED IN SPACE AND TIME, NOT ALLOWED TO LIVE
A FULL HUMAN LIFE.
NOT ALLOWED TO EXIST BEYOND THE EMBRYONIC STAGE.
AND THEN YOU'VE CREATED A HUMAN BEING WHOSE WHOLE IDENTITY
AND LINEAGE HAS BEEN COMPLETELY TURNED UPSIDE-DOWN.
TO ME, THIS IS A TERRIFYING
AND HORRIFYING PROPOSITION.
IT'S A WAY OF PLAYING GOD.
AND WITH HUMAN LIFE AT ITS EARLIEST STAGE OF DEVELOPMENT,
WHICH I THINK IS PROFOUNDLY DISTURBING --
THERE'S OTHER POSSIBILITIES THAT THIS TECHNOLOGY
RAISES AS WELL.
YOU KNOW, BASICALLY THE IDEA OF GENETIC THEFT
BECOMES VERY EASY WHEN YOU DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE TO
EXTRACT SPERM AND EGGS.
WITH, YOU KNOW, ESPECIALLY WITH EGGS,
A PROCEDURE THAT'S MUCH MORE MEDICALLY INVASIVE.
SO, THE EXAMPLE I USE IS SUPPOSE YOU'RE A MAID
WORKING AT A HOTEL WHERE A FAMOUS MOVIE STAR IS STAYING.
YOU KNOW, A TOM CRUISE OR A BRAD PITT, AND, YOU KNOW,
YOU HAVE THE NOTION THAT YOU WANT TO HAVE
THIS MOVIE STAR'S, BABY,
BUT YOU FAILED TO SEDUCE HIM
IN THE OLD-FASHIONED WAY.
WELL, NO MATTER, YOU CAN GO AFTER HE CHECKS OUT,
YOU CAN GO TO THE PILLOW WHERE HE'S SLEPT
AND SCRAPE SOME OF HIS SKIN CELLS OFF THE PILLOW
AND BRING IT TO A ROGUE IVG CLINIC,
AND HAVE THAT MOVIE STAR'S SPERM CREATED
AND THEN DO IVF AND BRING THAT PERSON'S CHILD TO BIRTH
WITHOUT THAT PERSON'S KNOWLEDGE OR CONSENT
THAT THAT EVEN HAPPENED, RIGHT.
SO WE'RE TINKERING WITH WITH NATURE AND THINGS
THAT GOD IN HIS WISDOM CONJOINED IN NATURE,
THAT WE ARE TEARING APART, RIGHT?
GOD MADE HUMAN LIFE TO BE BOUND UP WITH
THE LOVE OF A MOTHER AND A FATHER
IN THE CONTEXT OF MARRIAGE IN THEIR SEXUAL UNION
FOR A REASON.
BECAUSE THAT IS THE BEST CONTEXT
FOR A NEW HUMAN BEING TO BE BORN, AND TO BE RAISED,
AND TO BE NURTURED, AND TO BE GIVEN THE GIFT OF LIFE.
AND NOW THESE THINGS THAT GOD HAD CONJOINED
FROM CONCEPTION, TO GESTATION, TO BIRTH,
AND THE REARING OF CHILDREN,
USING THESE ASSISTED REPRODUCTIVE TECHNOLOGIES
FROM ARTIFICIAL GAMETES TO GESTATIONAL SURROGACY,
WHICH YOU MENTIONED EARLIER, TO IVF,
WE'RE TEARING THOSE THINGS APART.
AND I THINK WE'RE DOING IT IN A WAY
THAT HAS MAYBE UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES,
BUT NEVERTHELESS, PROFOUNDLY PROBLEMATIC
AND NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES FOR THE RESPECT
THAT'S DUE TO HUMAN LIFE, AND FOR THE CONTEXT
IN WHICH HUMAN LIFE SHOULD BE BROUGHT INTO THE WORLD.
NOW, SOME PEOPLE OBJECT AND SAY WELL, YOU KNOW,
THIS KIND OF THING HAPPENS ALL THE TIME
WITH ADOPTION, RIGHT?
SO IN THE CASE OF ADOPTION,
YOU DON'T HAVE A PERSON'S BIOLOGICAL MOTHER AND FATHER
RAISING THAT CHILD, AND YET WE ACCEPT THAT
AS A SOCIETY AND EVEN CHRISTIANS AND CHRISTIAN ETHICS
WOULD EMBRACE ADOPTION AS GOOD,
AS A WAY TO GIVE THIS CHILD MAYBE A POTENTIALLY BETTER LIFE
THAN THEY OTHERWISE WOULD HAVE HAD.
AND THAT'S TRUE, BUT THE DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE AND ADOPTION IS,
ADOPTION IS TAKING A SITUATION THAT IS TRAGIC
AND TRYING TO MAKE THE BEST OUT OF IT, RIGHT.
WE DIDN'T SET OUT BY DESIGN TO CREATE A SITUATION
WHICH A CHILD COULD NOT BE RAISED BY
ITS OWN FATHER AND MOTHER.
BUT, YOU KNOW, CIRCUMSTANCES BEING WHAT THEY ARE
IN A FALLEN WORLD, HUMAN NATURE
BEING WHAT IT IS,
MAYBE THE FATHER AND MOTHER HAVE DIED.
MAYBE THEY'RE ADDICTED TO DRUGS OR NOT IN A POSITION
WHERE THEY CAN CARE FOR THAT CHILD.
SO THEY GIVE IT UP FOR ADOPTION.
AND THAT'S MAKING THE BEST OF A TRAGIC SITUATION,
BUT WHAT THESE ARTIFICIAL REPRODUCTIVE TECHNOLOGIES
ARE DOING AND WHAT ARTIFICIAL GAMETES
AND SURROGACY DO, FOR EXAMPLE,
IS THEY SET OUT BY DESIGN
TO CREATE A SITUATION IN WHICH THE CHILD
IS NOT GOING TO BE BROUGHT INTO THE WORLD IN THE CONTEXT
OF A LOVING AND STABLE MARRIAGE
BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMAN.
AND SO I THINK THEY'RE MORALLY DIFFERENT
FOR THAT REASON.
ONE IS MAKING THE BEST OF A TRAGIC SITUATION.
THE OTHER IS SETTING OUT INTENTIONALLY IN ADVANCE
TO CREATE A PROBLEMATIC SITUATION.
SURROGACY, FOR EXAMPLE, RIGHT,
WHERE YOU HAVE A SURROGATE MOTHER
WHO'S SOMETIMES PAID IN THIS VERY TRANSACTIONAL
KIND OF ARRANGEMENT TO CARRY A CHILD IN HER WOMB
FOR NINE MONTHS AND WE KNOW THAT MATERNAL-FETAL
CHILD BONDING AND ATTACHMENT HAPPENS
DURING THOSE NINE MONTHS.
A NEWBORN BABY WILL PREFERENTIALLY TURN ITS GAZE
TO THE VOICE OF ITS MOTHER,
WHICH IT HAS KNOWN AND LEARNED
WHILE IT WAS IN THE WOMB.
AND WE CREATE A SITUATION
WHICH THAT GESTATIONAL MOTHER GIVES BIRTH
AND IN MOST CASES THE SURROGACY CONTRACT REQUIRES THAT
THEY NOT EVEN BE ALLOWED TO HOLD THAT CHILD
THAT THEY HAVE GESTATED FOR NINE MONTHS.
THE CHILD IS WHISKED AWAY AND GIVEN TO SOMEONE ELSE.
I WOULD ARGUE THAT THAT'S ETHICALLY DIFFERENT
FROM AN ADOPTION SITUATION.
BECAUSE, AGAIN,
WE DIDN'T SET OUT TO CREATE THE CIRCUMSTANCES
IN WHICH ADOPTION WAS FOUND TO BE THE BEST OPTION,
BUT IN THIS CASE WE DID.
WE SET OUT IN ADVANCE
WITH CONTRACTS, WITH PREARRANGED AGREEMENTS,
TO BASICALLY TEAR A CHILD AWAY FROM THE WOMAN
WHO GESTATED IT IN HER WOMB FOR NINE MONTHS
AND GIVE IT TO SOMEONE ELSE.
SO NEW HUMAN LIFE IS A GOOD AND BEAUTIFUL THING, RIGHT.
AND IT'S A GOOD AND BEAUTIFUL THING TO HELP
INFERTILE COUPLES TO BRING LIFE INTO THE WORLD.
BUT I THINK WE NEED TO FOCUS OUR ENERGIES ON
AS MANY PEOPLE NOW IN THE THE NEW MOVEMENT
TO MAKE AMERICA HEALTHY AGAIN,
LET'S FOCUS ON THE ROOT CAUSES OF INFERTILITY.
YOU KNOW, IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, NONE OF THESE
TECHNOLOGIES ACTUALLY TREAT INFERTILITY.
IVF DOESN'T TREAT INFERTILITY.
IT MERELY DOES AND END-RUN AROUND THE PROBLEM
BY CREATING THE NEW HUMAN LIFE IN THE LABORATORY.
>> YEAH.
>> SURROGACY DOES NOT TREAT THE INABILITY OF
A WOMAN TO CARRY A PREGNANCY TO TERM.
IT MERELY, YOU KNOW,
BASICALLY TAKES ANOTHER WOMAN AND USES HER BODY
AS A KIND OF NINE-MONTH LONG, SORT OF --
WHEN YOU PURCHASE A HUMAN BODY,
THERE'S A NAME FOR THAT, LEGALLY.
IT'S CALLED SLAVERY.
SO, I MEAN, IT'S A STRONG TERM, BUT IT'S THE
MOST ACCURATE WAY TO DESCRIBE THIS,
THIS COMMODIFICATION OF THE HUMAN BODY.
SO WE'VE TORN THINGS APART THAT
GOD HAS CONJOINED AND WE'VE ALSO,
BY FOCUSING EXCLUSIVELY ON THESE TECHNOLOGIES,
WE ALSO HAVE NOT PUT A LOT OF TIME AND ENERGY AND
RESOURCES AND RESEARCH INTO WHY ARE
1 IN 6 COUPLES
STRUGGLING WITH INFERTILITY.
WHENEVER I TALK ABOUT IVF, FOR EXAMPLE,
I ALWAYS WANT TO BE VERY COMPASSIONATE TO PEOPLE
WHO ARE TEMPTED TO DEPLOY THESE TECHNOLOGIES
BECAUSE THE PAIN OF INFERTILITY IS VERY REAL.
>> YEAH.
>> AND YOU HAVE VERY MANY COUPLES OUT THERE
THAT WOULD BE GOOD PARENTS AND WANT TO BRING A CHILD
INTO THE WORLD.
OKAY, LET'S LET'S FIND WAYS TO GET TO THE ROOT CAUSES
OF WHY THEY ARE UNABLE TO CONCEIVE
OR UNABLE TO CARRY A CHILD TO TERM AND TRY TO GET AT
THE ROOT OF THINGS, SO THAT CHILDREN CAN BE
BROUGHT INTO THE WORLD IN THE CONTEXT OF A LOVING
AND STABLE MARRIAGE;
IN THE CONTEXT OF THE SEXUAL UNION
THAT GOD DESIGNED PRECISELY TO BE THE WAY
THAT WE CO-CREATE WITH HIM NEW HUMAN LIFE.
RATHER THAN JUST BEING THE MASTERS OF THESE TECHNOLOGIES
THAT ARE NOW TAKING US, IN MANY CASES,
DOWN, I THINK, A POTENTIALLY VERY DARK PATH.
>> WOW.
WELL, JUST MY FINAL QUESTION FOR YOU IS, FIRST OF ALL,
THANK YOU FOR ALL OF THIS INSIGHT.
MY FINAL QUESTION IS WHAT IS THE THING THAT
YOU'RE THE MOST CONCERNED ABOUT, THAT YOU SEE
POTENTIALLY IN THE FUTURE?
>> WELL, I'M CONCERNED ABOUT HUMAN SIN.
IT'S A PERENNIAL --
IT'S A PERENNIAL PROBLEM.
I'M CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT THE ANCIENT GREEKS CALLED HUBRIS,
WHICH IS A FORM OF OVERWEENING PRIDE.
I'M CONCERNED THAT WE WILL ADOPT THE FALSE BELIEF
AND START TO WORSHIP THE FALSE IDOL
THAT THROUGH SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY,
WE CAN SAVE OURSELVES.
WE CAN LIVE FOREVER.
WHICH IS THE ULTIMATE GOAL OF THE TRANSHUMANIST MOVEMENT.
IT'S A RELIGIOUS ASPIRATION.
AND IT TAPS INTO -- IT'S ATTRACTIVE TO PEOPLE
BECAUSE IT TAPS INTO AN INNATE RELIGIOUS LONGING
THAT WE HAVE FOR ETERNAL LIFE THAT GOD
IMPLANTED IN OUR HEARTS.
AND IT GIVES US A COUNTERFEIT SUBSTITUTE
THAT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT GOING TO SATISFY US.
AND I BELIEVE IS, IN THE END, SALVATION THROUGH
SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY IS NOT ONLY GOING TO FAIL
TO ACHIEVE THAT GOAL,
IT'S GOING TO END UP BEING DEHUMANIZING.
IT'S GOING TO DO A LOT MORE HARM THAN GOOD.
SO A BIG PICTURE,
I WORRY THAT A LACK OF APPROPRIATE HUMILITY,
A LACK OF SUBMISSION TO GOD'S WILL, A BELIEF THAT
THROUGH THE WORK OF OUR HANDS THROUGH
SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
WE CAN BECOME OUR OWN GODS.
WE CAN CREATE A UTOPIA.
A PERFECT HUMAN FUTURE
IS GOING TO, AS THE IDEOLOGIES OF THE 20TH CENTURY,
LIKE COMMUNISM PROMISED A UTOPIA,
A PERFECT HUMAN FUTURE IN THIS LIFE, WHERE THERE
WOULD BE NO MORE NECESSITY, NO MORE DEPENDENCE.
THERE WOULD BE SORT OF PERFECT FREEDOM AND TRANQUILITY.
AND IT ENDED UP INSTEAD PRODUCING
A KIND OF HELL ON EARTH.
SO LET'S LEARN THE LESSONS OF THE 20TH CENTURY
THAT UTOPIAN IDEOLOGIES THAT ATTEMPT TO
CREATE PERFECTION ON EARTH, RATHER THAN LOOKING TO GOD,
RATHER THAN SUBMITTING TO HIS WILL,
RATHER THAN OBEYING HIS COMMANDMENTS AND FOLLOWING
THE LAW OF LOVE AND FOLLOWING THE GOSPEL,
I THINK IF WE DON'T DO THAT WE COULD HAVE
THE POTENTIAL, AS HAS HAPPENED IN THE LAST CENTURY,
OF GOING DOWN SOME VERY DARK PATHS THAT END UP BEING
EXTREMELY DESTRUCTIVE.
AND SO IN A SENSE THAT, I MEAN, NOT TO GET TOO APOCALYPTIC,
BUT I TRULY BELIEVE WE'RE AT A POINT IN HISTORY
WHERE THE FUTURE OF THE HUMAN RACE IS NOW DEPENDENT ON
CONVERSION OF HEARTS AND ON RELIGIOUS CONVERSION.
AND THE ANSWER IS CHRIST.
THE ANSWER IS FOUND THERE IN HIS CROSS
AND IN HIS RESURRECTION.
AND IF WE PLACE OUR HOPE THERE, AND HUMBLY GO TO HIM
WITH OUR PROBLEMS AND WITH OUR DIFFICULTIES,
ASKING FOR WISDOM AND GUIDANCE,
THEN WE HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO CREATE A FLOURISHING SOCIETY.
BUT IF WE FORGET GOD, IF WE NEGLECT GOD,
AND ATTEMPT TO BECOME OUR OWN GOD,
THEN WE'RE GOING TO END UP NOT ONLY SORT OF FAILING
TO ACHIEVE PERFECTION, BUT DOING ENORMOUS DAMAGE.
ALEXANDER SOLZHENITSYN, THE GREAT SOVIET DISSIDENT
WHO EXPOSED THE HORRORS OF COMMUNISM TO THE WORLD,
LOOKED BACK ON THE HORRORS OF SOVIET COMMUNISM
AND WORLD WAR II AND THE NAZI ATROCITIES,
AND HE BASICALLY SAID ALL OF THIS HAS HAPPENED
BECAUSE WE'VE FORGOTTEN GOD.
AND SO IF WE'VE BECOME A PEOPLE THAT HAS
FORGOTTEN GOD, THERE'S GOING TO BE SOME, YOU KNOW,
VERY HARD TIMES AHEAD.
IF WE RETURN TO HIM BEGINNING WITH THE
CONVERSION OF OUR OWN HEARTS,
YOU KNOW, WE CAN LOOK AT THE PROBLEMS IN SOCIETY
AND THINK THE ANSWER IS OUT THERE.
YOU KNOW, WE NEED POLITICS.
WE NEED SOCIAL STRUCTURES.
WE NEED VENTURES.
AND ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT.
DON'T GET ME WRONG.
POLITICS ARE IMPORTANT.
PUBLIC POLICY IS IMPORTANT.
THE INSTITUTIONS OF CIVIL SOCIETY,
ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT.
BUT THOSE THINGS WON'T SAVE US.
SOLZHENITSYN ALSO SAID THAT THE LINE
BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL RUNS
NOT BETWEEN POLITICAL PARTIES, AND NOT BETWEEN NATION STATES.
IT RUNS RIGHT THROUGH THE MIDDLE OF EVERY HUMAN HEART.
AND SO IF SOCIETY IS GOING IN A BAD DIRECTION,
THE FIRST PLACE WE HAVE TO LOOK IS INWARD, RIGHT?
WHAT CONVERSION IS GOD CALLING ME TO PERSONALLY?
WHAT IS HE CALLING ME TO DO TO TRY TO HELP THE PEOPLE
AROUND ME, BEGINNING WITH MY CLOSEST FAMILY,
BEGINNING WITH MY CLOSE FRIENDS,
AND THEN WORKING OUT IN CONCENTRIC CIRCLES FROM THERE.
IF WE BEGIN THERE,
IF WE BEGIN IN PRAYER WITH OUR OWN CONVERSION,
IF WE BEGIN TO SEEK CHRIST, THE WHOLE CHRIST,
THE HEALING CHRIST, THE PREACHING CHRIST,
THE TEACHING CHRIST,
THE SUFFERING CHRIST,
THE GLORIFIED AND RISEN CHRIST.
I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW,
WE HAVE A CHANCE OF PRODUCING A MORE
FLOURISHING SOCIETY AND NOT A -- NOT A UTOPIA,
WHICH WILL NEVER HAPPEN.
WE LIVE IN A FALLEN WORLD.
WE'RE NOT GOING TO ACHIEVE PERFECTION IN THIS LIFE.
BUT WE CAN DO BETTER, RIGHT?
WE CAN IMPROVE.
WE CAN CERTAINLY IMPROVE THINGS WITH OUR EYES
FIXED FIRMLY ON HEAVEN AND ON THE HOPE OF GLORY,
WHICH IS THE PROMISE, THE PRIZE OF ETERNAL LIFE
THAT GOD HAS GIVEN TO HIS FAITHFUL.
>> THAT'S SO GOOD.
WELL, DR, AARON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
>> THANK YOU, REBECCA.
I ENJOYED THE CONVERSATION.
>> I DID TOO.