I SIT DOWN AND TALK TO DR. MARK RUTLAND.
ONE OF THE BEST PREACHERS I KNOW AND ONE OF THE BEST LEADERS
HE HELPED LEAD THREE SUCCESSFUL TURNAROUNDS IN DIFFERENT
UNIVERSITIES AND CHURCHES.
AND WE TALK ABOUT THE LIFE OF DAVID AND ALL THE UPS AND DOWNS.
AND ALL THE INTERESTING THINGS IN BETWEEN.
REBECCA LAMB WEISS: HELLO.
WELCOME BACK TO THE REBECCA WEISS PODCAST .
I'M VERY HONORED TODAY BECAUSE I HAVE
THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNIVERSITY THAT I WENT TO,
BUT HE'S MUCH MORE THAN THAT.
HE IS A PREACHER, TEACHER, FOUNDER OF GLOBAL SERVANTS,
AND HE'S DONE MANY OTHER THINGS IN HIS LIFETIME.
HE'S AN AUTHOR, ALSO A BESTSELLING AUTHOR.
I'M TALKING ABOUT DR. MARK RUTLAND IS HERE.
DR. MARK RUTLAND: HELLO, REBECCA.
NICE TO BE WITH YOU, AS ALWAYS.
REBECCA: I'M REALLY EXCITED TO BE SHARING YOU WITH MY AUDIENCE.
AND I WOULD HAVE TO SAY, AND I'M NOT JUST SAYING THIS,
YOU CAN ASK MY TEAM WHO'S WATCHING OVER THERE.
YOU ARE ONE OF MY FAVORITE PREACHERS.
DR. RUTLAND: WELL, YOU'RE A WISE AND DISCERNING YOUNG WOMAN,
REBECCA: SO I WANT PEOPLE WHO ARE LISTENING TO THIS
OR WATCHING THIS TO LOOK YOU UP AND LISTEN TO YOUR TEACHING.
HOW CAN PEOPLE FIND YOU?
DR. RUTLAND: YEAH.
DRMARKRUTLAND.COM
WOULD BE ONE WAY.
OR THEY CAN GO TO GLOBAL SERVANTS.
GLOBALSERVANTS.ORG
IS OUR, THE MINISTRY THAT MY WIFE AND I FOUNDED.
OUR SON IS NOW THE PRESIDENT THERE,
BUT THEY CAN LOOK IT UP AND COME AND GET TO KNOW ME.
REBECCA: WHAT DOES GLOBAL SERVANTS DO?
DR. RUTLAND: GLOBAL SERVANTS HAS THREE THEATERS OF OPERATION.
ONE IS HERE IN THE UNITED STATES,
THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF CHRISTIAN LEADERSHIP,
WHICH I STILL RUN AND YOU ATTENDED.
AND THEN, TRAVELING, SPEAKING, WRITING OUR BOOKS,
THAT KIND OF THING.
AND THEN IN THAILAND, WE HAVE A SUBSTANTIAL GIRLS HOME
THAT MY WIFE AND I STARTED IN 1986.
IT'S A WONDERFUL THING.
FIFTEEN BUILDINGS ON TWO CAMPUSES.
REBECCA: WOW.
DR. RUTLAND: WE'VE RESCUED HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF GIRLS
FROM, THE POSSIBILITY OF SEX TRAFFICKING.
AND THEN IN WEST AFRICA, WE HAVE ABOUT 70 CHURCHES
IN FIVE COUNTRIES.
AND THEN WE HAVE A BIG SCHOOL
AND WE HAVE A SMALLER GIRLS HOME.
ALSO IN WEST AFRICA.
SO ALL OF THAT GHANA, TOGO, BENIN, COTE D'IVOIRE
AND BURKINA FASO, ALL IN WEST AFRICA.
REBECCA: OH, MY GOODNESS, THAT IS AMAZING.
SO FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO GO AND SUPPORT THAT,
WHERE CAN THEY FIND THAT?
DR. RUTLAND: GLOBAL SERVANTS WOULD BE EXACTLY WHAT THEY,
WHERE TO DO IT.
AND I HOPE THAT THEY WILL.
GENEROUS TO DO THAT.
REBECCA: THAT IS THE KIND OF STUFF WE WANT TO BE SUPPORTING.
DR. RUTLAND: THANK YOU.
REBECCA: SO, OF COURSE, LIKE YOU WERE MENTIONING EARLIER,
I DO WANT TO REFERENCE THAT, AS WELL.
THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF CHRISTIAN LEADERSHIP.
I ATTENDED THAT.
AND THAT WAS ACTUALLY IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR LEADERSHIP TRAINING,
I THINK IT'S ONE OF THE BEST.
FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO ATTEND THAT,
THIS IS WHERE YOU CAN LEARN FROM AN INCREDIBLE LEADER HIMSELF.
FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BE A PART OF THAT, I DID THAT.
I HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT.
HOW CAN PEOPLE GET PLUGGED INTO THAT?
DR. RUTLAND: WELL, THANK YOU, REBECCA.
AND YOU, YOU'RE OUR STAR GRADUATE.
I PUT YOUR PICTURE ON EVERYTHING.
YEAH.
RIGHT NOW, WHAT'S HAPPENED WITH THE NSCL?
IT'S KIND OF EXPLODED.
REBECCA: IT'S SO NEEDED.
DR. RUTLAND: AND WE'RE REALLY THRILLED WITH IT.
WHAT'S HAPPENED IS NOW IT'S BECOME SO POPULAR
THAT WE NO LONGER HAVE AN OPEN ONE, ORGANIZATIONS BY IT,
AS IT WERE.
AND I GO THERE AND DO IT FOR THEM,
SO IF THERE'S SOMEONE HERE REPRESENTING AN ORGANIZATION,
FOR EXAMPLE, DAYSTAR COULD DO ONE.
YOU COULD BUY IT FOR A YEAR.
I COME AND DO IT HERE, I'VE DONE THEM ALL OVER THE UNITED STATES,
AUSTRALIA, ELSEWHERE,
AND WE GO IN AND TEACH IT FOR THAT ORGANIZATION.
AND WHOEVER THEY BRING IN.
REBECCA: PERFECT.
DR. RUTLAND: SO IF ANYONE'S INTERESTED, THEY COULD REACH OUT
TO US AT GLOBAL SERVANTS.
REBECCA: I LOVE THAT.
OKAY, SO LET'S GET INTO THIS.
YOU'VE WRITTEN MANY BOOKS AT THIS POINT.
HOW MANY HAVE YOU WRITTEN?
DR. RUTLAND: 19.
WELL, 19 GOT PUBLISHED.
I'VE GOT SEVERAL IN DRAWERS SOMEWHERE THAT NOBODY WANTED.
REBECCA: SO 19 PUBLISHED.
THIS IS 15, BUT I WANTED TO HIGHLIGHT THIS BOOK
BECAUSEDAVID THE GREAT , BECAUSE HE AND FOR SO MANY OTHER PEOPLE
IS THEIR FAVORITE BIBLE CHARACTER,
SO JUST START US OFF, WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO WRITE THIS BOOK?
DR. RUTLAND: WELL, AS YOU JUST POINTED OUT, I AM ONE
OF THE VAST NUMBER THAT'S ABSOLUTELY FASCINATED
WITH THE LIFE OF KING DAVID.
HE WAS, REALLY A MULTIFACETED GENIUS,
IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, THIS IS A MAN WHO WAS BORN
ON THE CUSP BETWEEN THE IRON AGE AND THE BRONZE AGE.
SO WHEN, WHEN JESUS WAS BORN, DAVID WAS ALREADY
A THOUSAND YEARS IN THE PAST.
THINK OF THAT.
AND YET HE TRANSCENDS NOT ONLY MILLENNIA, BUT CULTURES.
HE WAS A MILITARY GENIUS.
HE WAS A NATION FOUNDER.
HE'S THE FOUNDER OF THE CITY OF JERUSALEM.
HE WAS A CONSUMMATE POLITICIAN.
HE WAS A MUSICIAN, AS FAR AS WE CAN TELL, A CHILD PRODIGY.
THERE'S NO INDICATION THAT ANYBODY ELSE IN HIS FAMILY
WAS MUSICAL.
AND DAVID, WHEN HE WAS A CHILD, HE WON THE ISRAELI VERSION
OFTHE VOICE AND IS TAKEN TO GIBEAH TO SING FOR THE KING.
AND YET, HE WROTE POETRY.
THINK ABOUT THIS.
AN IRON AGE WARRIOR WHO WROTE POETRY THAT IS STILL READ
3,000 YEARS LATER, AND IT'S PERTINENT AND RELEVANT.
THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO KNOW.
WHO IS THIS GUY?
AND THE MORE I RESEARCHED, THE MORE INTRIGUING HE BECAME.
REBECCA: SO LET'S DIVE INTO HIS EARLY LIFE OUT IN THE PASTURES.
YOU KNOW, MANY SAY HE WAS OVERLOOKED.
SPEAK TO HOW BEING A SHEPHERD BOY PREPARED HIM FOR THE PALACE.
DR. RUTLAND: YEAH, THAT'S A, HIS CHILDHOOD IS ACTUALLY
A FASCINATING THING BECAUSE WE KNOW SO LITTLE ABOUT IT.
BUT WE ACTUALLY CAN SEE IT WITHOUT IMPOSING.
ONE IS RELUCTANT TO IMPOSE TOO MANY THINGS ON THE STORY.
BUT WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THIS: HE WAS THE YOUNGEST OF EIGHT BOYS.
THE OTHER SEVEN WERE ALL GROWN MEN
WHEN HE WAS STILL A BOY.
WE DON'T KNOW HOW YOUNG, BUT TOO YOUNG TO GO INTO THE ARMY.
SO HIS BROTHERS WERE SUSPICIOUS OF HIM
AND WE KNOW THAT BECAUSE WHEN DAVID SHOWED UP TO FIGHT
GOLIATH, YOU REMEMBER DAVID'S OLDER BROTHER SAID,
I KNOW THE NAUGHTINESS OF YOUR HEART.
HE ALREADY KNEW THIS GUY.
SO YOU HAVE THIS YOUNGEST OF THE FAMILY.
THERE IS ALWAYS AN OLDER, YOUNGEST THING.
THE YOUNGEST OF, THE OLDER KIDS IN THE FAMILY
OFTEN THINK THE YOUNGEST IS MOLLYCODDLED,
THEY OFTEN THINK, YOU KNOW, YOU DIDN'T SPANK HIM AS HARD
AS YOU SPANKED US.
YOU KNOW, YOU GAVE HIM MORE THAN YOU GAVE US.
SO THERE'S ALWAYS THAT.
AND THEN YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT.
HE COMES IN FROM THE FIELD WITH THESE STORIES.
MAYBE HE'S A LITTLE BIT WEIRD.
MAYBE HE'S A PATHOLOGICAL LIAR.
SO HE COMES IN AND SAYS, LOOK, A BEAR CAME
AND ATTACKED THE SHEEP TODAY AND THEY SAID, A BEAR?
WHAT'D YOU DO?
HE SAID, WELL, I PUNCHED HIM WITH MY LITTLE FIST AND HE DIED.
REALLY. AND THEN THEY SAY, OKAY, WHAT ABOUT THE NEXT DAY?
OH, A LION CAME AND I HIT HIM IN THE FACE WITH MY FIST
AND KILLED HIM.
SO I VISUALIZE THIS MOMENT WHERE HIS OLDER BROTHER ELIAB SAYS,
THE NEXT TIME YOU KILL A BIG UGLY BEAST,
YOU CUT ITS HEAD OFF AND THROW IT AT MY FEET,
AND THEN I'LL BELIEVE YOU.
WHEN HE KILLED GOLIATH, WHAT'S THE FIRST THING HE DID?
CUT HIS HEAD OFF.
I THINK HE MAY HAVE ROLLED THAT HEAD AT THE FOOT OF ELIAB
AND SAID, WELL, THERE YOU GO.
BUT THEN HIS VOICE AND MUSIC ABILITY ARE SO FAMOUS.
HE'S IN A SMALL VILLAGE, IN JUDEA.
THE KING IS AT HIS CAMP.
HIS MILITARY CAMP IN GIBEAH, UP IN THE TRIBE, FURTHER AWAY.
AND SO HE SAYS, I NEED A MINSTREL, SOMEBODY TO COME
AND SING AT NIGHT.
AND SOMEBODY SAYS, THERE'S A BOY IN BETHLEHEM THAT SINGS.
SO HIS VOICE IS ALREADY FAMOUS AT THAT POINT,
ENOUGH FOR HIM TO BE KNOWN IN THE TRIBE OF BENJAMIN.
SO HE'S A COMPLICATED KID, EVEN FROM THE VERY BEGINNING.
YOU HAVE THIS SCENE WHERE SAMUEL COMES TO ANOINT,
GOD TELLS SAMUEL THE PROPHET TO GO TO BETHLEHEM,
AND HE'S, I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU THE NEXT KING OF ISRAEL.
SAMUEL GOES TO JESSE'S HOUSE, AND JESSE, DAVID'S FATHER,
AND ALL OF HIS BROTHERS ARE THERE.
AND ONE BY ONE BY ONE, SAMUEL REJECTS, NOT HIM, NOT HIM.
ELIAB, ABINADAB, EVERY ONE OF THEM.
AND THEN THEY BRING DAVID IN.
HE'S NOT HEARD ANY OF THIS PREREQUISITE.
HE DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING THAT'S GOING ON.
THEY JUST BRING HIM IN OUT OF THE SHEEPFOLD.
AND THIS OLD MAN POURS OIL ON HIS HEAD AND SAYS,
YOU'RE THE NEXT KING OF ISRAEL.
AND HE LEAVES.
WHAT I MEAN, THAT'S A CRAZY MOMENT.
YOU CAN MAKE THE CASE.
ONE CAN MAKE THE CASE
THAT GOD STOLE DAVID'S CHILDHOOD.
DAVID WAS A CHILD STAR.
AND WE CAN TELL FROM HOLLYWOOD, BEING A CHILD STAR
IS A COMPLICATED AND LIFECHANGING BUSINESS.
SO DAVID'S CHILDHOOD, WE DON'T KNOW A LOT ABOUT IT,
BUT WHAT WE KNOW IS VERY COMPLEX.
REBECCA: AND THEN FROM THERE,
WE KNOW THAT DAVID GETS BROUGHT INTO SAUL'S.
I DON'T KNOW THE BEST WORD TO DESCRIBE IT,
BUT HE BEGINS TO SERVE SAUL.
AFTER HE'S BEEN ANOINTED KING.
SO HE'S ANOINTED KING AND HE'S UNDERNEATH THE KING.
DR. RUTLAND: IT'S A VERY DICEY BUSINESS.
SO SAUL DOESN'T KNOW HE'S BEEN ANOINTED.
THAT WAS A SECRET THING.
WHAT SAMUEL DID AND WHAT DAVID TOOK PART IN,
ONE COULD MAKE THE CASE
IT WAS TREASON.
SO YOU CAN'T BE ANOINTED KING WHILE THE KING LIVES.
SO SAUL DOESN'T KNOW ALL THAT.
SAUL PROMISES HIS DAUGHTER
TO WHOEVER KILLS GOLIATH.
DAVID KILLS GOLIATH.
BUT SAUL PROVES DUPLICITOUS FROM THE BEGINNING.
HE GIVES DAVID A DAUGHTER, BUT NOT THE OLDEST,
NOT THE ONE HE SHOULD HAVE.
HE GIVES DAVID MICHAL,
AND SHE BECOMES HIS WIFE.
SHE ACTUALLY LOVES DAVID, BUT SHE IS A TRAGIC,
SHE'S ONE OF THE TRAGIC FIGURES OF THE BIBLE.
AND DAVID THEN BECOMES MOVES INTO UP TO GIBEAH
AND BEGINS TO SERVE IN SAUL'S ADMINISTRATION
AS A MILITARY PERSON.
AND HE'S ONE OF THESE RADIANT FIGURES
THAT THE WOMEN ALL LOVE HIM, AND THE MEN ALL WANT TO BE LIKE HIM.
AND OLDER MEN WANT TO SERVE.
HE'S A YOUNG GUY AND HE BECOMES A MILITARY COMMANDER.
AND SAUL'S JEALOUSY AND ENVY OF HIM,
HE BEGINS IMMEDIATELY TO TRY TO GET HIM KILLED.
AND SO HE SENDS HIM ON SUICIDE MISSIONS.
CRAZY THINGS; TAKE THIS FEW LITTLE SOLDIERS
AND GO CAPTURE THAT GARRISON, THINKING IT WOULD GET HIM KILLED
INSTEAD, THE CRAZIER THE MISSIONS HE SENDS HIM ON,
DAVID SUCCEEDS, AND IT MAKES DAVID EVEN MORE FAMOUS.
SAUL ACTUALLY INCREASES HIS FAME UNTIL FINALLY
SAUL, REALLY DEMONIC BY NOW, TRIES TO KILL HIM
WITH A JAVELIN, AND DAVID HAS TO FLEE.
THAT'S THE FIRST UP AND DOWN, MAJOR UP.
DAVID'S WHOLE LIFE COULD BE SEEN AS A ROLLER COASTER.
IT'S UP, DOWN, UP, DOWN, UP, DOWN HIS WHOLE LIFE.
AND DAVID IS IN A STRUGGLE FROM THE DAY THAT SAMUEL SHOWS UP
UNTO HIS DEATHBED, DAVID HAS TO GET UP ON HIS DEATHBED
AND DEAL WITH THE COUP D' !TAT.
AS HE'S DYING.
HIS WHOLE LIFE IS A STRUGGLE, AND IT'S JUST UP AND DOWN,
UP AND DOWN.
IT'S A, I MEAN, IT'S A FASCINATING LIFE.
REBECCA: IT IS A FASCINATING LIFE.
AND WHAT'S SO INTERESTING IS THERE IS THAT BOOK
THAT'S CALLED A TALE OF THREE KINGS ,
AND IT TALKS ABOUT LEADERSHIP AND SO MANY PEOPLE LEARN THAT
THEY DON'T WANT TO BE A LEADER LIKE SAUL.
THEY WANT TO BE A LEADER LIKE DAVID.
AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS SO PROFOUND ABOUT DAVID
IS EVEN THOUGH HE WAS ANOINTED KING,
HE NEVER TRIES TO USURP SAUL'S AUTHORITY.
EVEN THOUGH SAUL COULD BE EASILY ARGUED AS NOT A GOOD RULER.
AND KIND OF, I MEAN, TO THE POINT, LIKE YOU SAID,
IN A DEMONIC RAGE OF JEALOUSY
AND YET DAVID KNEW NOT TO TAKE OUT SAUL.
WHY IS THAT?
DR. RUTLAND: IT'S A VERY GOOD POINT.
DAVID HAD THIS HUGE SENSE OF THE SOVEREIGNTY AND PRIORITY OF GOD.
GOD DECIDES. AND DAVID, THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD
ON DAVID'S OWN LIFE WAS SO HUGE,
HE ACCEPTED AND RESPECTED THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD
ON SAUL'S LIFE.
SO HE SAID, I'M NOT,
I'M NOT REMOVING HIM.
HE HAD TWO CHANCES, YOU KNOW, TO KILL HIM IN THE WILDERNESS.
AND HE LET GO.
BOTH OF THEM GO.
SO IT WAS NOT THE ISSUE OF SAUL.
THE ISSUE IS GOD.
DAVID SAYS, I WILL NOT DO WHAT IS GOD'S DECISION.
I WON'T TAKE GOD'S,
I WON'T TAKE GOD'S PART.
LET GOD DECIDE.
SO IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT THING FOR ANYBODY INVOLVED
IN A BUSINESS OR MINISTRY OR ANYTHING ELSE.
LET GOD DEAL WITH THE LEADERSHIP.
THAT'S NOT FOR YOU.
REBECCA: AND I THINK THAT'S SUCH AN IMPORTANT WORD FOR, YOU KNOW,
I THINK ABOUT MY GENERATION AND THE YOUNGER GENERATIONS
BECAUSE I THINK PEOPLE THINK
IT'S THEIR JOB TO UNCOVER LEADERSHIP
OR TRY TO DEAL WITH SOMEONE.
AND THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS,
IS THAT GOD HAS PLACED THEM OVER YOU.
YOU'RE UNDER THEM.
YOU'RE NOT ABOVE THEM.
AND IF YOU TRY TO GET COME IN AND TRY TO TAKE THEM OUT,
THAT'S NOT HONORING.
AND THAT'S NOT HOW GOD'S KINGDOM WORKS.
AND I DON'T WANT TO JUMP WAY AHEAD.
BUT WE SEE THAT WITH ABSALOM, DAVID'S SON,
IRONICALLY, WHO DOES TRY.
DR. RUTLAND: TWO SONS. ABSALOM AND ADONIJAH.
REBECCA: OH, I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THAT ONE.
DR. RUTLAND: YEAH, TWO SONS TRY TO USURP DAVID'S AUTHORITY.
YEAH, YOU'RE RIGHT, DAVID.
NOW, TO A YOUNGER LEADER SERVING AN UNWORTHY LEADER,
I WOULD SAY THIS.
YOU ALWAYS HAVE THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO STAY IN AND SERVE SOMEONE WHO'S UNWORTHY
OR INVOLVED IN SOMETHING.
YOU SENSE SOMETHING'S HAPPENING HERE.
YOU SHOULDN'T BE APART OF. LEAVE.
YOU JUST DON'T GET TO ROLL A HAND GRENADE IN THE DOOR
AS YOU GO OUT.
YOU JUST YOU HAVE TO SERVE LIKE A CHRISTIAN.
LEAVE LIKE A CHRISTIAN.
WHEN DO YOU LEAVE?
WELL, A GOOD CLUE IS WHEN YOUR BOSS TRIES TO KILL YOU
WITH A SPEAR.
THAT'S A GOOD MOMENT RIGHT THERE.
SO DAVID LEAVES.
HE FLEES, AND NOW HE'S GONE FROM HIS FATHER'S HOUSE
TO THE KING'S HOUSEHOLD TO BEING ALONE IN THE DESERT.
HE IS ABSOLUTELY ALONE.
NOTHING. SAUL EVEN TAKES HIS WIFE, MICHAL,
AND GIVES HER TO ANOTHER MAN, A MAN NAMED SHEALTIEL.
AND SO DAVID HAS LOST HIS WIFE.
HE'S LOST HIS HOME.
HE'S LOST.
HE CAN'T GO BACK TO BETHLEHEM.
THE COPS ARE WATCHING HIS HOUSE.
THEY'VE STAKED THE PLACE OUT
REBECCA: BECAUSE SAUL WANTS HIM DEAD.
DR. RUTLAND: YES.
REBECCA: SAUL IS GOING TO KILL HIM.
SO DAVID MOVES INTO THE JUDEAN WILDERNESS,
AND HE BASICALLY JUST BECOMES A SOLITARY FIGURE
LIVING IN THE CAVE OF ADULLAM IN THE JUDEAN WILDERNESS.
BUT PEOPLE BEGIN TO, THEY FIND OUT ABOUT IT.
SOMEBODY SAYS, HEY, I HEARD DAVID'S ALIVE,
AND MEN GO OUT TO SERVE HIM, BUT THEY'RE NOT THE CREAM
OF THE CROP.
THE BIBLE MAKES IT PERFECTLY CLEAR
THEY'RE GUYS WHO WON'T PAY THEIR CHILD SUPPORT.
THEY GOT A BENCH WARRANT OUT FOR THEM.
THEY'RE SOME ROUGH, ROUGH GUYS.
AND THEY GO OUT.
DAVID FORMS THEM INTO A 600-MAN LIGHT CAVALRY UNIT
CALLED THE GIBOR.
AND GIBOR IN HEBREW MEANS "MIGHTY".
SO ANY WORD THAT ENDS IN -IM JUST MEANS PLURAL.
SO THE MIGHTY ONES. AND DAVID TRAINS THEM HIMSELF
IN A UNIQUE WAY.
HE TRAINS THEM TO BE ENTIRELY AMBIDEXTROUS.
NOW THAT IF YOU CARRYING AN AK-47,
THAT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING.
BUT IF YOU'RE FIGHTING WITH A SWORD AND YOU'RE RIGHT-HANDED,
SOMEBODY CUTS YOUR ARM, THEN YOU'RE DONE FOR.
BUT DAVID'S MEN WOULD DRAW SWORD.
THEY COULD KILL YOU WITH THEIR LEFT HAND.
SO THEY BECOME THE MOST LETHAL MILITARY UNIT.
MILITIA UNIT IN THE SOUTH OF ISRAEL, IN THE ARABA.
AND DAVID TRAINS THEM.
AND NOW,
SO HE'S GONE FROM SHEPHERD BOY, GENERAL, THIEF, GENERAL.
REBECCA: THE UP AND DOWN.
IT'S THE ROLLER COASTER.
DR. RUTLAND: THIS IS THE ROLLER COASTER OF DAVID'S LIFE.
AND NOW DAVID TAKES THAT 600-UNIT CAVALRY,
600-MAN CAVALRY UNIT, AND HE GOES TO GATH.
DOES THAT NAME RING A FAMILIAR BELL TO YOU?
THE MOST FAMOUS PERSON EVER BORN IN GATH IS GOLIATH.
REBECCA: OH, WOW.
DR. RUTLAND: SO DAVID TAKES HIS CAVALRY AND GOES TO THE PLACE
WHERE GOLIATH WAS BORN, WHOM HE KILLED
AND CUT HIS HEAD OFF.
AND HE BASICALLY SELLS HIS SWORD.
HE AND HIS CAVALRY BECOME MERCENARIES.
MERCENARIES FOR THE PHILISTINES.
REBECCA: OH, MY GOODNESS.
DR. RUTLAND: SO THE KING ACHISH OF THE PHILISTINES
WANTS TO KEEP DAVID UNDER HIS CONTROL.
AND HE FIGURES THE WAY TO DO IT IS GET DAVID TO RUIN HIS NAME
WITH THE JEWS.
SO HE SENDS DAVID TO RAID IN ISRAEL.
AND IF DAVID WILL DO THAT,
THEN THE PEOPLE IN ISRAEL WILL HATE HIM.
AND DAVID COULD NEVER GO HOME, AND HE'LL HAVE HIM FOR LIFE.
SO DAVID TRICKS HIM, HE GOES NORTH OUT OF GATH,
CIRCLES AROUND SOUTH, DOWN INTO THE VERY FAR SOUTH,
AND HE RAIDS AMALEKITE VILLAGES.
REBECCA: THE ANCIENT WERE AN ENEMY OF ISRAEL.
DR. RUTLAND: ENEMY OF ISRAEL.
AND REMEMBER THERE'S NO SATELLITE PHOTOS.
NOBODY KNOWS.
AND FRANKLY HE KILLS EVERYBODY.
SO THERE'S NO WITNESSES.
HE LOOTS THE VILLAGE, COMES BACK UP THROUGH ISRAEL,
COMES BACK, COMES TO ACHISH.
HERE, I DESTROYED THE VILLAGE AND HERE'S THE STUFF
AND SHARES THE LOOT WITH ACHISH.
SO ACHISH THINKS HE'S GOT IT.
BUT DAVID HAS NEVER KILLED A JEW.
REBECCA: WOW.
DR. RUTLAND: AND SO NOW ACHISH THINKS HE'S HIS MAN.
ACHISH GIVES HIM A VILLAGE.
HE SAYS, TAKE THIS.
AND THEY GIVE HIM THE TOWN OF ZIKLAG.
AND DAVID TAKES HIS MEN AND GO TO LIVE IN ZIKLAG.
SO NOW IT LOOKS LIKE HE'S SETTLED, DOESN'T IT?
SO NOW, GOOD.
FINALLY SETTLE.
FINALLY GOT MY PLACE, RIGHT.
HIS MEN ARE HAPPY. WHILE THEY'RE GONE,
THE AMALEKITES GIVE DAVID A TASTE OF HIS OWN MEDICINE.
THEY RAID ZIKLAG, BURN IT TO THE GROUND, CAPTURE ALL THE WOMEN
AND CHILDREN AND LEAVE.
AND DAVID'S MEN ARE GOING TO KILL HIM.
REMEMBER, IN A CRISIS OF LEADERSHIP, THE FIRST THING,
THE FIRST EMOTIONAL IMPULSE IS TO FIND SOMEBODY TO BLAME.
REBECCA: THAT'S TRUE.
DR. RUTLAND: AND SO THEY'RE GOING TO KILL DAVID.
THERE'S THIS GREAT BIBLE VERSE.
IT TELLS US EVERYTHING AND DOESN'T TELL US ENOUGH.
YOU EVER READ A VERSE LIKE THAT WHERE YOU SAY,
GOD, A LITTLE BIT MORE HERE?
IT JUST SAYS, DAVID ENCOURAGED HIMSELF IN THE LORD.
WE DON'T, HOW?
THAT'S WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW.
BUT WHATEVER HE DID, HE DID.
AND THEN HE SAID TO HIS MEN, LOOK, WE CAN STILL CATCH THEM.
THEY'RE BURDENED DOWN WITH ALL THESE DEPENDENTS,
WOMEN AND CHILDREN.
THEY CAN'T GO FAST.
WE CAN.
THEY TRACK THEM DOWN AND GET THEIR PEOPLE BACK,
KILL THE AMALEKITES.
MEANWHILE, THE PHILISTINES HAVE ATTACKED SAUL.
SAUL IS DEAD.
JONATHAN IS DEAD, AND THE ISRAELI ARMY IS DEFEATED.
SO THE TRIBE OF JUDAH COMES TO DAVID AND SAYS,
LOOK, WE'RE BREAKING OFF FROM ISRAEL.
COME AND BE OUR KING, BECAUSE DAVID'S FROM THE TRIBE OF JUDAH.
SO DAVID AND HIS MEN LEAVE ZIKLAG AND GO TO HEBRON,
THE CAPITAL OF JUDAH.
AND DAVID BECOMES THE KING OF JUDAH.
BUT THAT'S NOT HIS DESTINY, THERE'S A BRIEF CIVIL WAR,
AND THEN THE OTHER TRIBES COME
AND DAVID BECOMES THE KING OF ISRAEL.
UNITED KINGDOM OF ISRAEL.
BUT DAVID'S VERY SMART.
HE SAYS, IF I MAKE THE CAPITAL AT HEBRON,
THE OTHER TRIBES WILL SAY HE ONLY CARES ABOUT JUDAH.
IF HE GOES TO GIBEAH,
THAT SAUL'S OLD CAPITAL,
THE PEOPLE IN JUDAH WILL SAY HE'S DESERTED US.
SO DAVID GOES TO JEBUS.
IT'S THE CAPITAL OF THE JEBUSITES, AND HE CAPTURES JEBUS
AND RENAMES IT JERUSALEM.
REBECCA: OH, MY GOODNESS!
DR. RUTLAND: AND DAVID MAKES THE DECISION OUR FOREFATHERS MADE
IN THE UNITED STATES.
THEY SAID, IF WE PUT THE CAPITAL IN NEW YORK,
NEW YORK WILL BE THE MOST IMPORTANT.
IF WE PUT IT IN VIRGINIA, VIRGINIA WILL BE.
SO THEY CARVED OUT THE WHOLE NEW CAPITAL,
THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA.
IT'S NOT A STATE.
DAVID DOES THE SAME THING.
NEW CAPITAL, NEW KING JERUSALEM.
AND DAVID'S THE FOUNDER OF JERUSALEM 3,000 YEARS AGO.
REBECCA: AND SO MUCH OF WHAT HE WAS DOING WAS SO ESSENTIAL
TO WHAT, I MEAN, JESUS' COMING MINISTRY, WHAT HE WOULD DO,
I MEAN, INTO THE FUTURE.
IT'S JUST CRAZY TO THINK HE DIDN'T EVEN REALIZE
THE IMPACT OF HIS ACTIONS BACK THEN.
DR. RUTLAND: OH, OF COURSE NOT.
THINK ABOUT THIS NOW.
AFTER MOSES,
DAVID IS THE MOST IMPORTANT FIGURE IN ISRAELI HISTORY.
REMEMBER THE PEOPLE, THE BEGGARS AND THE BLIND
AND THE PEOPLE IN THE STREETS THAT CRIED OUT TO JESUS
FOR HEALING.
HEAL US.
JESUS, SON OF DAVID.
SO A THOUSAND YEARS LATER, THE LINE IS UNBROKEN
BETWEEN DAVID AND JESUS, BOTH BORN IN THE SAME SAMLL VILLAGE
A THOUSAND YEARS APART
AND THAT'S THE REASON THAT EVEN AFTER EVERYTHING,
SAINT PAUL KNOWING EVERYTHING, SAYS, AND THIS DAVID,
WHOM GOD CHOSE, A MAN AFTER HIS OWN HEART.
BUT DAVID WAS NOT EXACTLY PRISTINE, WAS HE?
REBECCA: NO.
SO LET'S MOVE INTO THAT,
BECAUSE THAT'S PROBABLY ONE OF THE MAIN POINTS
WHERE PEOPLE CAN LEARN FROM DAVID
THAT HE DID MAKE VERY BAD DECISIONS,
SOME VERY BAD DECISIONS, OR FELL VERY GREAT.
DR. RUTLAND: YES.
REBECCA: SO HOW DOES ONE REPENT AFTER MESSING UP SO BIG?
AND HOW DOES SOMEONE EVEN AFTER, SO GOD SEES HIM AS A MAN
AFTER GOD'S OWN HEART?
DR. RUTLAND: IT WAS ONE OF THE NUMBER ONE THINGS
I WANTED TO KNOW IN THE BOOK.
THAT'S ACTUALLY WHAT I WAS AFTER.
BECAUSE SAUL CALLS,
I MEAN, SAMUEL THE PROPHET CALLS DAVID A MAN
AFTER GOD'S OWN HEART, BUT HE DOESN'T KNOW ALL THE STUFF
DAVID'S GOING TO DO.
BUT A THOUSAND YEARS LATER, SAINT PAUL KNOWS
THE LIFE OF DAVID AND STILL CALLS HIM A MAN
AFTER GOD'S OWN HEART.
I MEAN, THERE WERE SOME MINOR ISSUES IN DAVID'S LIFE.
MURDER.
ADULTERY.
SO I WANTED TO KNOW WHAT,
WHAT'S THIS ABOUT?
SO IT'S COMPLICATED.
ONE IS, YOU CAN LOOK AT PSALM 51, WHICH DAVID WROTE.
PSALM 51 IS HIS ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF THE AFFAIR WITH BATHSHEBA.
HE WROTE IT PUBLICLY, GAVE IT OUT.
IT'S CLEARLY WHAT IT'S ABOUT.
AND IN, WATCH WHAT HE DOES, BATHSHEBA IS NOT MENTIONED.
REBECCA: OH, THAT'S A GOOD POINT.
DR. RUTLAND: THERE'S NO PLACE IN THE THING WHERE HE SAYS,
OH, LORD, I KNOW I'VE SINNED, BUT THIS WOMAN,
IF SHE'D HAVE KEPT HER CLOTHES ON, WE'D HAVE BEEN ALL RIGHT.
URIAH THE HITTITE, IF HE'D HAVE STAYED HOME
AND TAKEN CARE OF HIS WIFE, THIS WOULDN'T --
HE DOESN'T MENTION.
AGAINST THEE,
AND THEE ONLY HAVE I SINNED AND DONE THIS WHICH IS EVIL
IN THY SIGHT.
DAVID TAKES PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY,
BUT THEN HE MOVES INTO AN ABSOLUTELY NEW TESTAMENT FRAME
OF, LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAYS.
PURGE ME WITH HYSSOP, AND I SHALL BE CLEAN.
WASH ME, AND I SHALL BE WHITER THAN SNOW.
THAT'S NEW TESTAMENT.
THAT'S A THOUSAND YEARS BEFORE THE CROSS.
DAVID IS SAYING, TAKE THE HYSSOP BUSH,
DIP IT IN THE BLOOD, SPRINKLE ME WITH IT AND MAKE ME CLEAN.
HE IS PLEADING THE BLOOD AS A PROPHET
A THOUSAND YEARS BEFORE JESUS IS CRUCIFIED.
SO CONFESSION, REPENTANCE, FAITH IN THE BLOOD, ALL OF THOSE.
BUT THERE'S STILL SOMETHING ELSE.
IT'S THE MOMENTUM OF DAVID'S LIFE.
THAT'S WHAT I BELIEVE.
WATCH THESE.
ARE YOU A COLLEGE OR PRO FOOTBALL FAN AT ALL?
REBECCA: I AM, I'M A GEORGIA BULLDOG FAN BECAUSE OF MY DAD.
DR. RUTLAND: LOOK AT YOU, LOOK AT YOU.
WELL, YOU WATCH THESE BIG COLLEGE RUNNING BACKS
OR PRO RUNNING BACKS.
YOU CAN BRING THEM DOWN, YOU CAN STOP.
THEY CAN BE TACKLED, BUT THEY CAN FALL
FOR THREE-AND-A-HALF YARDS.
BECAUSE THEY'RE FOCUSED ON THAT GOAL LINE.
THEY GET UP AND GO AGAIN AND GET UP AND GO AGAIN AND GET UP.
AND THEY'RE GOING FOR THAT GOAL LINE.
THAT'S WHAT I SEE IN DAVID.
YES, DAVID FALLS, BUT HE FALLS FORWARD.
HE RISES AGAIN.
HE GETS GOING.
HIS MIND IS ON THE FOCUS.
LISTEN TO HOW HE, IN PSALM 23, AND I SHALL DWELL
IN THE HOUSE OF THE LORD FOREVER.
SO HE'S THINKING ABOUT HEAVEN THE WHOLE TIME.
YES, HE GETS DISTRACTED.
YES, HE COMMITS SIN.
YES, THESE THINGS ARE WRONG.
THERE'S NO EQUIVALENCY HERE.
IT'S WRONG.
IT'S JUST WRONG.
BUT DAVID RISES FROM THAT AND FINDS REDEMPTION IN GOD
AND GETS HIS MIND BACK ON THE FOCUS.
DAVID IS A MAN AFTER, YOU MIGHT SAY, WHAT IF I SAID
HE WAS A MAN IN PURSUIT OF THE HEART OF GOD?
AFTER MAKES US THINK LIKE THE HEART OF GOD.
BUT WHAT IF YOU TAKE OUT THE WORD AFTER
AND INSERT THE PHRASE IN PURSUIT OF?
HE'S A MAN IN PURSUIT OF THE HEART OF GOD.
THAT'S WHAT I BELIEVE ABOUT DAVID.
REBECCA: THAT'S SO GOOD, I KNOW WE'RE ALMOST OUT OF TIME.
IS THERE ANY FINAL REMARKS YOU WANT TO MAKE ABOUT DAVID
BEFORE WRAPPING UP THIS INTERVIEW?
DR. RUTLAND: WELL, ONE THING, DAVID, THE DAVID HIMSELF
AND THE BOOK, BY THE WAY, THE BOOK HAS BEEN A HUGE SELLER
BECAUSE WE TAPPED INTO A READING AUDIENCE
THAT'S HARD TO REACH WITH CHRISTIAN BOOKS.
MOST CHRISTIAN BOOKS ARE BOUGHT BY WOMEN, UNFORTUNATELY.
BUT REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU THINK, SOME MEN CAN READ
AND WE STARTED TO PUT PICTURES IN THIS ONE.
WE THOUGHT THAT WOULD HELP, BUT MEN READ IT
BECAUSE THEY IDENTIFY, THIS IS A GUY YOU WANT TO
TAKE DEER HUNTING WITH YOU.
ONE LADY BOUGHT 360 COPIES.
I SAID, I'M FINE, MA'AM.
I'LL SELL YOU 100,000.
BUT WHY?
SHE SAID, MY SON IS A MASTER SERGEANT IN THE ARMY,
AND HE WANTS TO GIVE THEM OUT TO TROOPS.
ONE GUY BOUGHT HIM FOR ALL THE COPS IN HIS TOWN.
ALL THE CITY POLICE.
SO THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT THIS GUY THAT STILL,
3,000 YEARS AFTER HIS DEATH, MEN STILL WANT TO
BE IN DAVID'S UNIT.
THEY STILL WANT TO.
EVERYBODY'S DIVIDING UP TO SEE WHO'S GOING TO TAKE THIS TROOP,
WHO'S GOING TO TAKE THAT ONE.
AND EVERYBODY SAYS, I RIDE WITH DAVID
AND BECAUSE HE JUST HAS THIS 3,000 YEARS.
THINK WHAT THAT'S THREE MILLENNIA LATER.
MEN ARE STILL DRAWN TO DAVID.
REBECCA: THAT'S SO GOOD.
FINAL WORD.
CAN YOU JUST GIVE A WORD OF ENCOURAGEMENT
FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE LISTENING?
DR. RUTLAND: THE GREATEST WORD OF ENCOURAGEMENT I CAN GIVE
IS THIS: IF THERE IS ONE GREAT STRENGTH IN DAVID,
HE NEVER GAVE UP.
HE NEVER QUIT.
HE JUST GOT UP AGAIN.
HE GOT UP AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.
HE KEPT REINVENTING HIMSELF AND HE LIVED A FLEXIBLE,
CREATIVE LIFE, IRRESPECTIVE OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES
IN WHICH HE FOUND HIMSELF OFTEN,
SOMETIMES BECAUSE OF HIS SINS,
BUT OFTEN BECAUSE OF THE SINS OF OTHERS.
SO NO MATTER WHAT YOU'RE GOING THROUGH,
EXPERIENCE THE GRACE OF GOD.
GET UP OFF OF THE MAT, PUT YOUR GLOVES ON AGAIN,
AND WADE BACK IN.
REBECCA: THAT'S SO GOOD.
WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
THE BOOK ISDAVID THE GREAT . FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE INTERESTED,
WHERE CAN THEY GET THIS?
DR. RUTLAND: WELL, ANYWHERE THEY BUY BOOKS, OF COURSE,
AMAZON OR ANYTHING ELSE.
BUT THE EASIEST PLACE IS DRMARKRUTLAND.COM.
REBECCA: AWESOME.
WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
AND THAT'S ALL FOR TODAY.
SEE YOU NEXT TIME ON THE REBECCA WEISS PODCAST .