REBECCA LAMB WEISS: HEY, GUYS.
WELCOME BACK TO THE REBECCA WEISS PODCAST .
I'M VERY EXCITED TODAY BECAUSE WE HAVE
THE FOUNDER AND PASTOR OF UPPERROOM.
MICHAEL MILLER IS HERE.
MICHAEL MILLER: WHAT'S UP?
REBECCA: OH, MY GOODNESS,
I'M REALLY -- WE WERE HAVING A LITTLE
PRE-CONVERSATION TO THE INTERVIEW,
AND I'M ALREADY REALLY EXCITED TO DO THIS INTERVIEW,
SO THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.
MICHAEL: YES. SUCH AN HONOR TO BE HERE.
REBECCA: AND I JUST WANT TO PLUG IT FROM THE TOP
BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT THIS A LOT.
THIS IS YOUR NEW BOOK,
HIS HOUSE, HIS PRESENCE .
I LOVE THIS COVER.
MICHAEL: IT'S PRETTY SWEET.
ONE OF OUR ARTISTS DID IT IN OUR COMMUNITY,
AND IT WAS A PAINTING.
AND SO WE JUST TOOK THAT PAINTING
AND PUT IT ON THE COVER.
REBECCA: I LOVE IT.
THAT'S SO COOL.
MICHAEL: PRETTY COOL, YEAH.
REBECCA: SUCH AN INCREDIBLE CHURCH,
FULL OF SO MANY AMAZING THINGS,
CREATIVES AND ALL THAT.
SO MUCH GOOD STUFF COMING OUT OF IT.
WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT YOUR STORY
AND THE STORY OF UPPERROOM.
SO LET'S START WITH YOU.
TELL US ABOUT YOUR UPBRINGING.
MICHAEL: MY UPBRINGING.
WELL, I'M A DALLAS KID,
SO I WAS BORN AND RAISED HERE IN NORTH DALLAS.
WAS A PART OF THE CHURCHES OF CHRIST.
SO MY PARENTS' PARENTS WERE ALL CHURCH OF CHRIST.
I'M A THIRD GENERATION CHURCH OF CHRIST BOY.
REBECCA: WOW.
MICHAEL: AND ALL I REMEMBER WAS GOING TO CHURCH
SUNDAY MORNING, SUNDAY NIGHT,
WEDNESDAY NIGHT.
IF THE CHURCH DOORS WERE OPEN,
THE MILLERS WERE THERE.
SO THAT WAS KIND OF A FAMILY MOTTO.
WE WERE CHURCH PEOPLE.
I GREW UP WITH A HIGH VALUE FOR THE CHURCH,
A HIGH VALUE FOR SCRIPTURE, COMMUNITY.
I LOVED THE LOCAL CHURCH.
SO I'M A PRODUCT OF THE CHURCHES OF CHRIST.
AND I LOVE MY TRADITION, I LOVED MY UPBRINGING,
AND JUST THE VALUES THEY PUT IN ME.
SO IT'S FAIRLY CONSERVATIVE.
I'VE BEEN ON A JOURNEY TO BE WHERE I'M AT TODAY,
BUT I'M SO GRATEFUL FOR MY FAMILY AND MY ROOTS.
REBECCA: YEAH.
YOU'RE THANKFUL FOR THE FOUNDATION IT PROVIDED.
MICHAEL: FOR REAL.
REBECCA: AND FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW,
BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE WE'RE DRIFTING NOW SO FAR
FROM THE DENOMINATIONS,
LIKE THEY WERE SO MUCH A THING
PROBABLY FIFTY YEARS AGO, BUT NOW I FEEL LIKE
MAYBE PEOPLE YOUNGER DON'T EVEN KNOW
WHAT CHURCH OF CHRIST IS.
SO MAYBE INFORM A LITTLE BIT ON
WHAT THAT DENOMINATION WAS LIKE.
MICHAEL: YEAH.
THEY WERE PROBABLY MOST KNOWN FOR
A CAPPELLA MUSIC.
THEY DIDN'T HAVE INSTRUMENTS.
THEY COME OUT OF THE CHRISTIAN MOVEMENT.
IT WAS A REVIVAL IN KENTUCKY.
THE CAMBRIDGE REVIVAL IS WHAT LAUNCHED
THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH AND CHURCHES OF CHRIST.
AND I DON'T KNOW WHY THEY SEPARATED,
BUT MANY, MANY DECADES AGO, THEY SEPARATED,
BUT THE DISTINCTION OF THE CHURCH OF CHRIST
IS A CAPELLA MUSIC, BUT HIGH VALUE FOR THE WORD,
HIGH VALUE FOR WATER BAPTISM.
WATER BAPTISM IS A SIGNIFICANT REVELATION.
THEY HAVE COMMUNION EVERY SUNDAY.
SO I JUST GREW UP IN THAT TRIBE
AND WENT TO A CHURCH OF CHRIST COLLEGE,
WENT TO ABILENE CHRISTIAN
AND WENT THERE TO PLAY BASEBALL.
BUT JUST REALLY GRATEFUL
FOR THE EXPOSURE AND THE ROOTS THAT I DEVELOPED
IN THAT UPBRINGING.
REBECCA: AND SO WHEN YOU ARE A SENIOR IN COLLEGE,
YOU HAVE AN ENCOUNTER?
MICHAEL: YEAH.
REBECCA: TALK ABOUT THAT.
MICHAEL: I WAS AROUND GOD A LOT.
I PRAYED THE PRAYER.
I DON'T KNOW IF I HAD LIKE A MOMENT IN TIME
MICHAEL: I FEEL LIKE IT WAS A NUMBER OF TIMES.
REBECCA: ME TOO.
MICHAEL: BUT I REMEMBER MY SENIOR YEAR,
BEFORE MY SENIOR YEAR, I WAS TAKING MAYMESTER,
AN ECONOMIC COURSE FOR LIKE THE SECOND TIME.
[ LAUGHING ]
I WAS A STRUGGLING STUDENT.
REBECCA: I RELATE TO THAT.
MICHAEL: BUT I WAS LIVING BY MYSELF FOR THE FIRST TIME,
AND THE ACHE INSIDE OF ME WAS JUST EXPOSED.
AND I KNOW NOW IT WAS THE HOLY SPIRIT CAME IN.
I FELT LIKE I HEARD MY NAME AUDIBLY.
I KNEW WHAT GOD WAS ASKING OF ME
AND I'D HAD THOSE MOMENTS BEFORE,
AND I WAS JUST SO SCARED TO SIGN UP.
BECAUSE OF MY LIFE,
I WAS PRESENT IN MY FRATERNITY
AND JUST, I KNEW WHAT GOD WAS ASKING OF ME.
SO I SAID, LORD, I'LL GIVE YOU TOMORROW.
THAT'S ALL I KNEW I COULD SAY.
I'LL GIVE YOU TOMORROW.
AND ONE DAY TURNED INTO TWO, A WEEK, A MONTH.
I GOT SOME MOMENTUM LEADING INTO
THE NEXT SCHOOL YEAR,
AND I'M STILL LIVING THAT TODAY.
SO MY LIFE WAS MARKED THAT NIGHT,
AND I BEGAN A RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS
SOMETIME IN MY SENIOR YEAR.
REBECCA: THAT IS PROFOUND.
MICHAEL: I'LL GIVE YOU TOMORROW.
REBECCA: YEAH. AND I LOVE THAT
BECAUSE HE WAS LOOKING FOR A SURRENDER IN THAT MOMENT.
AND HE WORKED WITH YOU.
YOU WERE LIKE, I'LL GIVE YOU TOMORROW,
AND THEN YOU TAKE IT ONE DAY AT A TIME,
AND NOW YOU'RE LIVING OUT OF COMPLETE AND TOTAL SURRENDER.
YOUR LIFE IS A BYPRODUCT OF THAT.
MICHAEL: YEAH.
IT'S BEEN - I MEAN, ANYONE THAT KNEW ME
FROM THAT MOMENT FORWARD,
KNEW THERE WAS A DISTINCT MARK THAT HAD HAPPENED,
AND THAT I HAD ENCOUNTERED THE LORD.
SO HE STARTED MOVING ON MY FRIEND GROUP
THERE IN COLLEGE.
AND I WOULD JUST ENCOURAGE ANYONE LISTENING
THAT'S STRUGGLING WITH FOLLOWING THE LORD
TO SIMPLIFY IT
AND TAKE IT DAY BY DAY, TO SURRENDER DAILY.
PICK UP YOUR CROSS DAILY.
I THINK SOMETIMES WE CAN GET OVERWHELMED
WITH THE MAGNITUTDE OF, WHAT AM I CALLED TO DO.
REBECCA: ALL THE DETAILS AND THE FUTURE.
MICHAEL: YES.
WHO IS IT WITH.
AND JUST DAY BY DAY, THAT DAILY BREAD WILL SUSTAIN PEOPLE.
SO IT'S BEEN A DAILY JOURNEY.
I'M STILL WAKING UP TODAY,
LORD, I'LL GIVE YOU TOMORROW.
BUT DEVELOPING THAT HISTORY'S IMPORTANT.
REBECCA: WHEN YOU HAD THAT ENCOUNTER WITH GOD,
HOW DID YOU KNOW HOW TO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM
MOVING FORWARD?
LIKE, WHAT THAT LOOKED LIKE?
MICHAEL: YEAH.
I DIDN'T.
[ LAUGHING ]
I MEAN, I MAY HAVE HAD AN IDEA OF WHAT THAT LOOKED LIKE,
BUT FOR ME, IT WAS WAKING UP IN THE MORNING,
SURRENDERING THE DAY.
THANKSGIVING HAS ALWAYS BEEN A MAJOR PART
OF MY RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LORD,
JUST LEARNING TO GIVE HIM THANKS.
SO I REMEMBER IN THE EARLY DAYS THANKING HIM,
JOURNALING, AND READING A CHAPTER OF THE BIBLE.
IT STARTED OUT JUST A CHAPTER.
I'M GOING TO JUST TAKE THIS IN SMALL BITES.
AND SO ONE CHAPTER AT A TIME.
A LOT OF TIMES, I WOULD REREAD THAT CHAPTER.
BUT I JUST GOT IN SOME SIMPLE RHYTHMS
THAT SET ME UP THERE IN THE EARLY DAYS.
BUT I THINK JUST DOING SOMETHING
WAS BETTER THAN DOING NOTHING.
REBECCA: YEAH.
MICHAEL: AND THAT'S WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE.
REBECCA: AND THEN IT DEVELOPED FROM THERE
WHEN YOU LEARNED MORE AND MORE.
MICHAEL: SURE.
REBECCA: I ASK THAT BECAUSE I WAS, SIMILAR TO YOU,
I DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD,
AND I FEEL LIKE THAT'S SUCH AN IMPORTANT TOPIC
BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT'S THE FOUNDATION OF OUR FAITH,
BUT THEN A LOT OF TIMES,
THEY DON'T TEACH YOU THAT IN THE CHURCH SOMETIMES.
AND SO IT IS, BUT I LIKE THAT YOU SAID SIMPLIFY,
I LIKE THAT YOU SAY YOU JUST START BY THANKSGIVING.
THAT'S PRAISE.
READING THE WORD.
AND, OF COURSE, I KNOW GOD,
BECAUSE YOUR CHURCH IS ALL ABOUT PRAYER,
SO HE BROUGHT YOU INTO THAT DEEPER PLACE
OF LIKE HAVING A PRAYER LIFE
AND ALL THAT KIND OF STUFF.
MICHAEL: FOR SURE.
REBECCA: SO WHERE DID YOU GO FROM SENIOR YEAR ENCOUNTER,
FROM ON THERE?
MICHAEL: YEAH, SURE.
I WAS A BUSINESS MAJOR,
SO I THOUGHT I WOULD GO INTO THE MARKETPLACE.
MY FAMILY IS MAINLY BUSINESSMEN,
AND SO MY DAD HAD A COMPANY
THAT I POTENTIALLY WOULD HAVE TAKEN OVER,
BUT IT WAS SO OBVIOUS IN THE EARLY DAYS
THAT I WAS SUPPOSED TO SERVE HIM IN THE CHURCH, YEAH.
SO I ENDED UP TAKING A JOB NOT FAR FROM HERE
IN TROPHY CLUB, AT A SMALL CHURCH OF CHRIST.
IT WAS LESS THAN A HUNDRED PEOPLE.
WE DIDN'T HAVE A BUILDING.
AND IT REALLY WAS THE BACK FORTY SHEEP PASTURE FOR ME.
YOU KNOW, DAVID DEVELOPED SUCH A HISTORY WITH GOD
IN THE SHEEP FIELD WITH HIS HARP.
THOSE WERE - THOSE DAYS FOR ME.
IT WAS OBSCURE, HIDDEN.
AND JUST LEARNING HOW REALLY TO DEAL WITH
PERSONAL BATTLES,
THINGS IN MY 20S THAT I BROUGHT
INTO MY JOURNEY WITH THE LORD THAT I WAS
REALLY BEING SANCTIFIED IN,
AND I REALIZED,
READING THE BOOK OF NUMBERS IS INTERESTING.
I DON'T KNOW WHERE WE WANT TO GO WITH THE PODCAST, BUT -
REBECCA: GO WHEREVER YOU WANT.
MICHAEL: [ LAUGHING ]
BUT IF YOU WERE 20,
BECAUSE I BET A BIG LARGE OF THIS AUDIENCE
IS 20 YEARS OLD, IN THAT DEMOGRAPHIC,
BUT 20 AND UPWARD,
IN THE BOOK OF NUMBERS, YOU WERE ASSIGNED TO THE ARMY.
SO A TWENTY-SOMETHING WOULD HAVE BEEN A SOLDIER.
THEY WOULD HAVE WOKEN UP AND THOUGHT OF WAR,
THOUGHT OF THEIR WEAPON.
BUT I SAW SOMETHING IN THE SCRIPTURES THAT
THIRTY WAS A SEASON OF ENTERING INTO
THE CALLING IN MINISTRY.
JOSEPH, EZEKIEL, JOHN THE BAPTIST,
JESUS, DAVID, SAUL,
THERE'S ALL THESE MEN THAT ENTERED INTO
THEIR CALLING AT 30.
AND I TELL 20-SOMETHINGS ALL THE TIME
THAT YOUR 20S ARE A TIME OF WARFARE.
THEY'RE LEARNING HOW TO FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH.
JOHN, IN 1 JOHN 2, HE ADMONISHES YOUNG MEN,
YOU'VE OVERCOME THE EVIL ONE.
THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT US UNDERSTANDING
HOW TO APPLY OUR FAITH TO OUR LIFE TO OVERCOME.
AND SO YOUR 20S CAN BE BLOODY.
THEY CAN BE - YOU'RE REALLY UNDERSTANDING YOUR IDENTITY.
YOU'RE UNDERSTANDING HOW GOD DESIGNED YOU.
MORE IMPORTANTLY, HOW HE DIDN'T DESIGN YOU.
AND SO I WOULD JUST ENCOURAGE PEOPLE
THAT ARE STILL DISCOVERING THEIR IDENTITY IN THEIR 20S,
THAT IT'S OKAY, THAT THAT'S WHAT YOUR 20S ARE FOR,
IT'S LEARNING HOW TO FIGHT,
LEARNING HOW TO ESTABLISH YOURSELF IN THE LORD.
AND I THINK THERE'S A GRACE THAT MEETS US
IN OUR 30S, 40S, THAT HELPS US WALK OUT THAT CALLING,
BUT YOUR 20S A LOT OF TIMES ARE JUST MARKED
BY CLINGING SWORDS, AND, YOU KNOW,
BULLETS BUZZING BY YOU.
AND THERE'S JUST A LOT, I THINK,
OF GRACE THEY NEED TO HAVE FOR THEMSELVES.
REBECCA: EXACTLY.
THAT'S SO TRUE.
I DON'T THINK -- I THINK YOU NEED TO BE LEARNING,
LIKE YOU SAID.
YOU LEARN YOUR ENTIRE LIVES,
BUT THAT'S YOUR PLACE, LIKE YOU SAID.
WHEN YOU THINK OF DAVID IN THE PASTURES,
THAT'S WHERE HE LEARNED TO FIGHT THE LION,
FIGHT THE BEAR, IT WAS WHERE HE WAS LIKE
TAUGHT AND FORTIFIED AND STRENGTHENED,
AND YOU NEED THAT TO GO INTO YOUR 30S
AND ENTER THE CALL.
IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT PREPARATION,
YOU'RE GOING TO GO INTO YOUR CALLING
AND NOT BE ABLE TO BE SUSTAINED.
SO YOU'VE GOT TO LEARN, YOU'VE GOT TO LEARN.
AND I THINK PEOPLE GET TOO FOCUSED ON HITTING THESE MARKS,
AND IT'S LIKE, YOU NEED TO LET GOD LEAD YOU,
AND WHEN THE TIMING IS RIGHT,
HE'LL OPEN THAT DOOR FOR YOU.
BUT YOU DON'T -- I LOVE THAT YOU SAID WARFARE,
BECAUSE THAT IS A TIME OF WARFARE AND TRIALS
AND TRIBULATIONS, AND TO BE,
FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE LISTENING,
DON'T BE DISCOURAGED BY THOSE THINGS.
THEY'RE NOT BAD THINGS.
THERE'S SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN DRAW NEAR TO GOD IN
AND HAVE AN INTIMACY WITH HIM IN THE STORM,
BUT THE STORMS ARE GOING TO FORTIFY YOU,
THEY'RE GOING TO SANCTIFY YOU,
THEY'RE GOING TO REVEAL THINGS IN YOU
AND SO THEY'RE NECESSARY AND THEY'RE GOOD.
SO DON'T RUN FROM THEM.
BECAUSE I THINK A GOOD PORTION OF MY 20S
WAS JUST, I WANT TO GET OUT OF THIS.
[ LAUGHING ]
AND THEN I FINALLY LEARNED, OH,
THERE'S A REASON TO THIS.
MICHAEL: THERE'S PURPOSE IN THAT.
REBECCA: AND THERE'S A REASON TO COMPLICATED PEOPLE
IN YOUR LIFE,
COMPLICATED SITUATIONS.
AND JUST SUBMIT THOSE THINGS TO THE LORD AND SAY,
OKAY, GOD, WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO TEACH ME THROUGH THIS?
SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO KEEP WALKING AROUND
THAT SAME MOUNTAIN OVER AND OVER AGAIN
TRYING TO LEARN THAT LESSON.
IT'S LIKE, YOU WANT TO LEARN THE LESSON WHILE YOU'RE YOUNG,
AND I KEEP TRYING TO GO AROUND IT AGAIN AND AGAIN.
SO YOU'RE IN TROPHY CLUB.
WHAT GOES ON FROM THERE?
MICHAEL: IT WAS IN THAT SEASON,
I BROUGHT SOME BROKENNESS
INTO MY RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LORD,
SPECIFICALLY SEXUAL BROKENNESS.
THAT'S A BIG PART OF MY TESTIMONY
IS JUST GETTING HEALED
IN THAT AREA OF MY LIFE.
BUT I GOT DESPERATE.
I DIDN'T FULLY UNDERSTAND
GOD'S GRACE AND FORGIVENESS
FOR MYSELF.
AND SO DEPRESSION AND ANXIETY WERE SOME THINGS
IN MY EARLY 20S
THAT JUST REALLY TOOK HOLD.
AND I GOT DESPERATE FOR GOD.
I WAS IN SEMINARY, I WAS -- ON THE OUTSIDE,
EVERYTHING LOOKED RIGHT, BUT ON THE INSIDE,
THE LORD WAS IDENTIFYING, HEY,
I WANT TO MEND UP THIS PART,
I WANT TO HEAL THIS BROKEN PART OF YOU.
AND AN ELDER TOOK ME TO A MEETING,
FROM THIS CHURCH OF CHRIST, TO A MEETING.
IT WAS LIKE AN UNDERGROUND PRAYER MEETING
THAT WAS WITHIN THE STREAM THAT I WAS IN,
BUT IT WAS FILLED WITH A LOT OF DISCLAIMERS,
BUT HE KNEW I WAS DESPERATE.
AND IT WAS THERE THAT I WENT INTO AN ENVIRONMENT
AND SOMEONE PROPHESIED OVER ME FOR THE FIRST TIME.
THEY HAD A WORD OF KNOWLEDGE ABOUT SOMETHING
THAT HAPPENED WHEN I WAS PROBABLY 13
THAT REALLY MARKED MY LIFE
AND BEGAN THAT JOURNEY OF BROKENESS.
AND I WAS CRYING.
ALL I COULD SAY IN THAT MEETING IS GOD'S REALLY HERE,
GOD'S REALLY HERE, GOD'S REALLY AMONG YOU.
I KNEW THAT I ENCOUNTERED GOD.
AND I WENT AND I READ 1 CORINTHIANS 14
WHERE IT TALKS ABOUT THE GIFT OF PROPHECY BEING USED,
AND IT SAID THE UNBELIEVING OR UNGIFTED
WILL EXCLAIM GOD'S REALLY AMONG YOU, AND I SAID,
THIS HAPPENED TO ME TONIGHT.
THIS HAPPENED.
AND THAT BEGAN A PURSUIT OF UNDERSTANDING
WHO THE HOLY SPIRIT IS,
AND A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT,
THE PERSON OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
I HAD A THEOLOGICAL GRID FOR HIM
AND AN UNDERSTANDING,
BUT I DIDN'T KNOW HIM PERSONALLY.
I DID NOT KNOW THE POWER,
I DID NOT KNOW THE INTIMACY,
THAT I COULD HAVE WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT,
THAT HE'S A PERSON.
AND SO THAT BEGAN A JOURNEY OF STARTING
TO HAVE ENCOUNTERS WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT,
UNDERSTANDING THE GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT,
WHICH INEVITABLY IMPACTED MINISTRY
AND HOW THAT WAS EXPRESSED THROUGH
THE MINISTRY VOCATION I WAS IN.
AND SO THAT BEGAN A JOURNEY, AS WELL.
REBECCA: SO, WHEN YOU WERE RAISED IN THE CHURCH OF CHRIST,
DID YOU HAVE EXPOSURE TO
THE INFILLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT,
SPEAKING IN TONGUES, ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
MICHAEL: NO, NO.
REBECCA: SO DID THAT COME AROUND THAT TIMING
AFTER THE PROPHECY?
MICHAEL: YEAH.
I STARTED TO --
REBECCA: HOW DID YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO?
MICHAEL: I DIDN'T.
REBECCA: [ LAUGHING ]
MICHAEL: I DIDN'T. I DIDN'T.
IT WAS ALL NEW AND EXTREMELY WEIRD.
IT WAS EXTREMELY A CHALLENGE TO --
I HAD SO MANY QUESTIONS.
BUT I THINK WHAT WAS CRUCIAL IN ANYONE
THAT FINDS HIMSELF IN THAT PLACE,
IS RELATIONSHIP WITH PEOPLE.
THE PEOPLE THAT I KNEW BORE REALLY GOOD FRUIT.
AND NOT THAT THOSE THAT WEREN'T EXPRESSING THOSE GIFTS
DIDN'T HAVE GOOD FRUIT,
BUT I SAW THE MARK OF THE LORD ON THEIR LIVES,
AND I JUST STARTED INQUIRING AND ASKING.
AND SOME DISCIPLESHIP, RELATIONSHIPS,
SPECIFICALLY MARCUS BRECHEEN,
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU KNOW MARCUS.
REBECCA: I LOVE HIM!
MICHAEL: YOU DO, OKAY.
REBECCA: YES. THIS IS AWESOME.
MICHAEL: SO MARCUS IS, MARCUS STARTED MENTORING ME.
REBECCA: I FORGOT HE CAME FROM THAT BACKGROUND.
I FORGOT ABOUT THAT.
MICHAEL: SO HE INTERVIEWED ME FOR A POSITION
AT A CHURCH OF CHRIST CHURCH,
AND HE SAID SOME THINGS, AND I WAS LIKE,
AND IT WAS IN THE REALM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT,
AND I SAID, MAN, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THAT.
THIS PROBABLY ISN'T THE BEST CHURCH FOR ME.
AND HE SAID, YEAH, PROBABLY NOT.
AND THEN WHEN I HAD THESE ENCOUNTERS,
I THOUGHT, I'M GOING TO LOOK UP MARCUS.
BECAUSE HIS FAMILY IS, THEY'RE JUST VERY WELL-KNOWN
IN THE CHURCHES OF CHRIST.
HIS DAD WAS A PROFESSOR AT ABILENE CHRISTIAN.
SO I CALLED MARCUS, AND MARCUS HAD GOTTEN HIRED AT GATEWAY.
AND IT WAS RECENT.
AND HE SAID, I'LL MEET YOU AT STARBUCKS.
AND SO WE MET FOR PROBABLY TWO YEARS,
AND HE JUST LAID SUCH A SOUND FOUNDATION.
FOR ME, KNOWING MY BACKGROUND,
AND HELPED ME JOURNEY INTO THOSE THINGS.
AND SO I STARTED ATTENDING GATEWAY
ON SATURDAY NIGHTS.
REBECCA: OH, MY GOODNESS.
MICHAEL: YEAH.
SO GATEWAY, IT WAS WHEN IT WAS MEETING
AT THE PRIMROSE,
IT WAS THE EARLY DAYS.
THEY DIDN'T HAVE A BUILDING YET.
BUT PASTOR ROBERT AND THOSE GUYS REALLY HELPED ME
ON MY THEOLOGICAL JOURNEY.
SO I'M REALLY GRATEFUL FOR GATEWAY.
BUT MARCUS, MARCUS IS STILL THERE
AT THE UPPERROOM ON SUNDAY NIGHTS
AND MARCUS IS STILL A PART OF MY LIFE,
AND HE'S JUST BEEN A BIG BROTHER AND FATHER TO ME.
SO MARCUS WAS EXTREMELY HELPFUL.
REBECCA: THAT IS SO COOL.
MICHAEL: SMALL WORLD, HUH?
REBECCA: WELL, I JUST REMEMBER HIM
BECAUSE HE PREACHED AT,
HE USED TO DO KAIROS, AND I DID --
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU EVER DID KAIROS AT GATEWAY,
IT'S LIKE THEIR INNER-HEALING SESSIONS,
AND HE DOES ONE OF THE FOUNDATIONAL MESSAGES.
AND SO HE PREACHED TWO SERMONS,
AND I'VE HEARD LIKE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF SERMONS
IN MY LIFE,
AND I REMEMBER BOTH OF THE ONES HE PREACHED.
HE PREACHED ONE THERE
AND HE PREACHED ONE AT BIBLE SCHOOL,
AND THEY BOTH CHANGED MY LIFE.
MICHAEL: HE'S SUCH A GOOD TEACHER.
REBECCA: HE'S SUCH A GOOD PREACHER.
MICHAEL: YEAH, YEAH.
REBECCA: SO IF YOU'RE LISTENING TO THIS,
YOU CAN LOOK HIM UP.
OKAY.
SO YOU START GETTING DISCIPLED,
GROWING IN YOUR INTIMACY WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.
WHAT GOES ON FROM AFTER THAT?
MICHAEL: I WENT TO ANOTHER CHURCH THAT WAS MUCH LARGER,
A COUPLE THOUSAND,
AND WAS THE YOUNG ADULT PASTOR.
I HAD A COUPLE HUNDRED YOUNG ADULTS.
AND AT THAT TIME, I HAD A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP
WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, BUT I DIDN'T REALLY
UNDERSTAND THE CHARISMATIC WORLD.
REBECCA: LIKE THE OUTPOURING OF IT INTO A MINISTRY SETTING.
MICHAEL: YEAH, IN THE MINISTRY SETTINGS.
AND SO -
REBECCA: BUT I FEEL LIKE YOU STARTED IN THE RIGHT PLACE,
BECAUSE YOU CAN ACTUALLY -
SOME PEOPLE CAN HAVE LIKE THE GIFTS,
BUT THEY DON'T HAVE THE INTIMACY.
MICHAEL: MM-HM, YEAH.
AND IT'S LIKE A GUN -
REBECCA: YOU'RE A VERY FOUNDATIONAL, GOOD STEP BY STEP.
MICHAEL: VERY STRATEGIC FROM THE LORD.
REBECCA: IT'S VERY COOL.
MICHAEL: YEAH.
IT WAS DEFINITELY A JOURNEY IN PROCESS.
SO THAT SENIOR PASTOR AT THAT CHURCH INVITED ME
TO AN EVENT THAT WAS THE WEIRDEST,
STRANGEST EVENT I HAD EVER BEEN TO.
IT WAS CALLED TEXAS ABLAZE.
YOU COULD IMAGINE, THERE WERE LIKE THE,
I CALLED IT - SOMEONE ASKED ME WHAT I THOUGHT OF IT,
AND I THOUGHT IT WAS LIKE A SPRING BREAK,
IT LOOKED LIKE A SPRING BREAK PARTY
FOR MIDDLE-AGED WOMEN,
LIKE JUST WOMEN WERE SHAKING AND THERE WERE FLAGS.
REBECCA: OH, MY GOODNESS.
MICHAEL: IT WAS JUST ONE OF THOSE LIKE, IT WAS CHARISMANIA.
FROM MY STANDPOINT, IT LOOKED LIKE THAT.
AND I THOUGHT, I'M NEVER GOING,
I'M NOT GOING BACK TO THAT,
THIS GUY'S GOING TO BE EMBARRASSED
HE INVITED ME.
AND IT TURNED OUT THAT HE HAD BEEN ENCOUNTERING GOD,
AND HE WAS LIKE, ISN'T THIS AWESOME?
AND I WAS LIKE, I KNOW.
[ LAUGHING ]
LIKE, I DON'T UNDERSTAND ANY OF IT.
REBECCA: YOU'RE LIKE, THIS MAKES ME UNCOMFORTABLE.
MICHAEL: YEAH.
AND THEN THE NEXT DAY, I DON'T WANT TO SPEND TOO LONG
ON THIS STORY, BUT THE NEXT DAY,
THE POWER IN THE CHURCH WAS OUT AND HE RAN UPSTAIRS
AND HE SAID, I THINK WE'RE SUPPOSED TO GO BACK
TO THE CONFERENCE.
THERE'S A SESSION THAT STARTS IN 30 MINUTES.
SO WE WENT BACK
AND PATRICIA KING WAS MINISTERING.
AND THERE WERE 2,000 PEOPLE IN A ROOM,
AND SHE CALLED ME OUT.
AND SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT POWER EVANGELISM,
AND I WAS REALLY OVERTAKEN.
I'D NEVER SEEN EVANGELISM ON THE STREETS IN THIS WAY.
THEY WERE PROPHESYING OVER PEOPLE
AND PEOPLE WERE COMING TO THE LORD.
IT WAS BEFORE SMARTPHONES AND CAMERAS EVERYWHERE,
BUT THEY HAD VIDEO TEAMS ON THE STRIP IN VEGAS.
AND I WAS JUST MARKED.
I WAS LIKE, OH, MY GOSH, THIS IS SO POWERFUL.
AND I WAS IN THE BACK CRYING,
BUT NO ONE REALLY KNEW IT.
AND THEN SHE IDENTIFIED THAT GOD WAS SPEAKING TO ME
AND JUST REALLY CALLED OUT A LOT OF THE THINGS
THAT I'M DOING TODAY.
REBECCA: WOW.
MICHAEL: AND SO THE FRUIT OF THAT TIME,
I'M SO GRATEFUL FOR.
I THINK SOMETIMES GOD WRAPS HIMSELF IN PACKAGES
THAT WE WOULDN'T CHOOSE.
LIKE, IT'S WEIRD OR OFFENSIVE TO OUR FLESH, OUR MIND.
BUT DISCOVERING HIM IN THOSE PLACES
CAN BE LIFE-CHANGING.
AND SO THAT WAS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF KINDA JEHOVAH SNEAKY.
[ LAUGHING ]
MICHAEL: YOU KNOW, THE JEHOVAH SNEAKY SNEAKING IN
AND JUST, HE DID ONE ON ME THERE.
BUT I, FROM THERE, REALLY DEVELOPED A HUNGER
FOR THE PRESENCE OF GOD AND STARTED TO TAKE THAT
YOUNG ADULT MINISTRY INTO THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT
AND JUST UNDERSTANDING HOW TO HOST GOD.
AND SO WE GOT A PASSION FOR PRAYER.
PRAYER IS A MEANS TO HIM, AND SO THAT'S WHERE
WE REALLY STARTED EXPLORING CORPORATE PRAYER
AROUND THE PRESENCE OF GOD,
WHICH IS WHERE I MET SEAN FEUCHT.
WE TALKED ABOUT SEAN.
SEAN HAD STARTED THE BURN,
AND SO SEAN CAME THROUGH DALLAS,
AND HE AND I HOOKED UP AND STARTED TRAVELING
AND PLANTING THESE THINGS CALLED THE BURN TOGETHER,
WHICH WAS JUST 24-48 HOURS OF NONSTOP PRAYER
HOSTING GOD'S PRESENCE.
REBECCA: WHERE DID YOU MAKE THE CONNECTION
TO PRAYER BEING SO PIVOTAL
IN HOSTING THE PRESENCE OF GOD?
MICHAEL: PERSONALLY, THAT'S HOW
I ENGAGE THE PRESENCE OF GOD.
REBECCA: SO YOU WANTED TO TAKE IT CORPORATELY?
MICHAEL: MM-HM.
I REALLY WRESTLED AS A PASTOR WITH JESUS' DEFINITION
OF HIS HOME.
JESUS WAS REALLY CLEAR HOW HE DEFINED
WHAT WOULD BE HIS HOME.
HE SAID, MY HOUSE WILL BE A HOUSE OF PRAYER.
AND I HAD ALWAYS TAKEN THAT PERSONALLY,
THAT WE COLLECTIVELY, INDIVIDUALS PRAY.
BUT I ALWAYS SENSED THERE WAS MORE TO THAT,
THAT IF THAT'S THE ACTIVITY THAT DEFINES
THE PLACE THAT HE RESTS,
THE CHURCHES THAT I WORKED FOR,
THAT WOULD NOT BE THE DEFINING ACTIVITY.
REBECCA: EXACTLY.
MICHAEL: IT WOULDN'T.
IT WAS THE LEAST-ATTENDED MEETING, THE PRAYER MEETING.
REBECCA: NO, IT'S TRUE.
MICHAEL: AND SO I WANTED TO,
I FELT LIKE IT WAS AN INVITATION FROM THE LORD,
WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT?
I HAD MORE QUESTIONS THAN ANSWERS.
AND SO THE QUESTIONS LED INTO
A DISCOVERY FOR ME PERSONALLY
AND THE PEOPLE THAT I WAS LEADING,
WHAT THAT COULD LOOK LIKE.
AND I THINK IT'S A RED CARPET
FOR THE CHURCH TO DISCOVER WHAT HE MEANT BY THAT.
I DON'T THINK IT'S JUST A MINISTRY.
WHEN WE THINK HOUSE OF PRAYER,
A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT KNOW THAT LANGUAGE THINK OF KANSAS CITY
OR HOUSE OF PRAYER CULTURE,
BUT I THINK IT'S SO MUCH BROADER THAN THAT.
REBECCA: IT IS.
MICHAEL: AND MY HOPE IS TO REALLY ENCOURAGE PASTORS
TO EXPLORE WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE.
BECAUSE WE'VE SEEN INCREDIBLE FRUIT
FROM LEARNING HOW TO HOST GOD'S PRESENCE.
REBECCA: IT'S NOT LIKE A SPECIAL NICHE FOR THE CHURCH,
IT'S FORTHE CHURCH.
MICHAEL: YES.
IT IS FORTHE CHURCH.
REBECCA: AND, SEE, I GREW UP,
SEE, WHAT'S INTERESTING IS,
I GREW UP IN A SPIRIT-FILLED ENVIRONMENT,
AND IT WAS INTERESTING
BECAUSE INTERCESSION WAS LIKE FOR A GROUP OF SPECIAL PEOPLE,
AND IT'S JUST LIKE, HONESTLY, IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS,
THAT I'M EVEN BEGINNING TO UNDERSTAND
HOW IMPORTANT AND LIKE PIVOTAL PRAYER IS,
AND HOW WE SHOULD ALL BE IN PRAYER PERSONALLY,
HOW LIKE THAT'S LIKE THE SECRET PLACE IN OUR QUIET TIME
IN OUR PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD,
AND THEN HOW WE NEED TO BE DOING THAT AS THE BODY OF CHRIST.
AND SO IT'S JUST LIKE THIS BIG, MASSIVE THING,
AND I'M LIKE, HOW DID I NOT SEE THIS MY WHOLE LIFE?
BECAUSE I GREW UP IN CHURCH MY WHOLE LIFE.
AND IT'S TRUE.
IT'S LIKE I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE AVOIDING PRAYER.
THEY'RE LIKE, OH, THAT'S JUST FOR THOSE PEOPLE.
AND I USED TO WRITE OFF LIKE THE INTERCESSORS,
I WAS LIKE, OH, THEY'RE WEIRD, YOU KNOW.
AND SO...
AND THE FLESH DOESN'T LIKE PRAYER.
BUT IF YOU GET PAST
WHAT I THINK YOUR MIND MIGHT ASSUME PRAYER IS
AND ACTUALLY GET INTO,
LIKE YOU SAY, GOD'S PRESENCE AND YOU START TO HEAR GOD'S HEART,
YOU REALIZE PRAYER IS LIKE A BEAUTIFUL THING,
AND IT'S FOR ALL OF US.
AND THEN WHEN YOU STUDY ANY MAJOR MOVE OF GOD,
IT ALWAYS INVOLVED PRAYER.
MICHAEL: PRECEDED PRAYER, YEP.
YEP, FOR SURE.
REBECCA: IT WASN'T LIKE PREACHING OR THIS.
IT WAS ALWAYS PRAYER IN UNITY.
MICHAEL: YEAH.
WHEN I HEAR THE WORD PRAYER,
IT'S SYNONYMOUS IN MY WORLD WHEN PEOPLE AT THE UPPERROOM
HEAR PRAYER, THEY HEAR THE WORD, RELATIONSHIP.
REBECCA: YEAH.
THAT'S SO MUCH - THAT'S SUCH A GOOD WAY OF DESCRIBING IT.
MICHAEL: SO DEFINING PRAYER AS RELATIONSHIP,
IT'S A GROUP OF PEOPLE IN RELATIONSHIP WITH A MAN
WHO'S ALIVE, WHO SENDS HIS SPIRIT INTO A REAL PLACE
AT A REAL TIME THAT WE GET TO ENGAGE.
AND SO LEARNING HOW TO DANCE WITH HIM,
LEARNING HOW TO ENGAGE HIM.
AND IT'S NOT A SCIENCE.
IT'S NOT A FORMULA.
IT'S A ROMANCE.
IT REALLY IS.
THERE'S AN EXCHANGE THAT HAPPENS.
AND SO INTERCESSION IS A PART OF PRAYER.
IT'S A FORM OF PRAYER.
BUT I THINK SOMETIMES WE'VE RELEGATED PRAYER TO ASKING.
AND THAT'S A COMPONENT OF PRAYER,
BUT IT'S SO MUCH MORE.
AND SO WE HAVE PRAYER.
I WOULD CONSIDER WORSHIP
AT THE BEGINNING OF ANY CHURCH SERVICE
IS A FORM OF CORPORATE PRAYER,
THAT WE'RE SINGING TO HIM, BUT EVEN THEN,
I THINK DECONSTRUCTING WHAT IS WORSHIP MUSIC?
I THINK LOOKING AT NOT ALL MUSIC
THAT WE SING IN CHURCH IS WORSHIP.
A LOT OF IT'S SINGING ABOUT OURSELVES.
AND SO I'M VERY PASSIONATE KIND OF ABOUT
REALLY HONING IN ON DEFINITIONS,
BECAUSE I THINK THEY'RE IMPORTANT.
BUT, YEAH, THE HOUSE OF PRAYER TOPIC IS ONE
THAT I'M EXTREMELY PASSIONATE ABOUT,
AND THAT'S WHY I WROTE THE BOOK.
REBECCA: YEAH. AND IT'S LIKE YOUR BOOK,
IT SAYS,HIS HOUSE, HIS PRESENCE .
AND SO IT'S SEEKING HIM, AND IT'S LIKE WHEN YOU GET
INTO THE WORD, YOU START TO REALIZE THAT GOD
WANTS TO BE OUR GOD AND WE BE HIS PEOPLE
AND THAT HE WANTS A PLACE FOR HIS PRESENCE TO BE WITH US.
BUT LIKE THAT'S HIS DESIRE THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE THING,
IS THAT GOD WANTS TO BE WITH US.
AND IN THE BEGINNING, IT SAYS, I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
THEY WILL BE MY PEOPLE.
AT THE END IT SAYS THAT
AND HOW IT'S ABOUT GOD TABERNACLING,
GOD BEING WITH US.
MICHAEL: YES.
REBECCA: AND SO PRAYER IS A PART OF THAT.
AND I LOVE THAT YOU SAID PRAYER IS RELATIONSHIP
BECAUSE I THINK FOR SO LONG, FOR ME, PERSONALLY,
I THOUGHT OF PRAYER AS LIKE JUST ME SAYING WORDS UP,
NOT AN EXCHANGE.
MICHAEL: YES.
YEAH. THERE'S A GIVE AND TAKE.
THERE'S A - I TALK ABOUT NOT SHOWING UP EMPTYHANDED.
SO THANKSGIVING, WE ALWAYS START OUT ENTERING THE GATES
WITH THANKSGIVING, SO WE BRING AN OFFERING TO HIM.
BUT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO OUTGIVE HIM.
SO IF YOU'RE GIVING HIM SOMETHING,
YOU'RE ACTUALLY POSITIONING YOURSELF TO RECEIVE.
AND SO JUST PEOPLE LEARNING HOW TO PRAY
OR WANT ENCOURAGEMENT IN THEIR PRAYER LIFE,
I WOULD ENCOURAGE THEM TO START WITH AN OFFERING OF THANKS.
TELLING HIM THANK YOU.
ITEMIZING THAT.
AND THEN WAITING ON HIM.
WAITING ON HIM TO RESPOND AND LEAD AND DIRECT
FROM THAT PLACE.
IT BEGINS THAT DANCE, I THINK,
WHERE WE RELATIONALLY START.
REBECCA: THAT'S HOW THE TABERNACLE IS LAID OUT.
THE TABERNACLE OF MOSES, WHICH IS THE TABERNACLE
THAT'S A TYPE OF SHADOW IN HEAVEN IT TALKS ABOUT
IN HEBREWS, AND THE VERY FIRST THING IS,
ENTER HIS COURTS WITH THANKSGIVING,
THAT GATE THAT OPENS.
MICHAEL: PSALMS 100, YEAH.
REBECCA: YEAH, IS THE THANKSGIVING.
SO BY, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I WOULD LOVE TO STUDY.
AND HOW THAT GIVES US LIKE A HEAVENLY MODEL
OF WHAT IS GOING ON IN HEAVEN.
MICHAEL: RIGHT, RIGHT, YEAH.
I CALL IT THE LITTLE HINGE.
THANKSGIVING'S THE LITTLE HINGE.
REBECCA: BUT IT MAKES SUCH A BIG DIFFERENCE.
MICHAEL: IT DOES.
THE DOOR THAT OPENS UP IS THE DOOR OF OUR HEART.
IT POSITIONS US TO REALLY ENGAGE HIM,
THE GIVER OF ALL THAT'S GOOD,
AND WE'RE PUTTING HIM IN
THE RIGHTFUL PLACE OF THE GIVER
THAT'S ALL THAT'S GOOD, AND AGAIN, THAT DANCE BEGINS.
BUT, YEAH,
I LOVE TALKING ABOUT PRAYER.
REBECCA: THAT'S AWESOME.
SO YOU ARE WITH SEAN.
WHAT HAPPENS FROM THERE?
MICHAEL: FROM THERE...
REBECCA: DO YOU FEEL LIKE YOU LEARNED A LOT
IN THAT SEASON WITH HIM?
MICHAEL: I DID.
REBECCA: OR SOMETHING GOT STIRRED UP IN YOU?
MICHAEL: WE WERE LEARNING TOGETHER.
I THINK SEAN HAD JUST GRADUATED ORU
AND HAD A PASSION FOR --
REBECCA: HOW OLD WERE YOU AT THAT TIME?
MICHAEL: I WOULD HAVE BEEN IN MY LATE 20S.
REBECCA: OKAY.
MICHAEL: AND SEAN'S ABOUT FIVE YEARS YOUNGER THAN ME,
I THINK, SO HE WOULD HAVE BEEN IN HIS EARLY 20S.
YEAH.
IT WAS A CONTEXT FOR US TO EXPLORE WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE
TO GATHER PEOPLE IN A REGION AND PRAY.
AND IT WAS NUCLEAR.
THERE WAS A SUBSTANCE TO IT THAT REALLY BROUGHT
LIFE TO THE CHURCHES THAT WE HOSTED THESE EVENTS AT.
THERE WAS A TANGIBLE MARK OF POWER,
A TANGIBLE MARK OF GOD'S PRESENCE
ON THOSE MEETINGS
AND THEN SUBSEQUENTLY AFTER THAT.
BUT I KEPT THINKING, WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE
TO PLANT A COMMUNITY AROUND THIS, JUST AS A PASTOR?
WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE FOR US TO FORMALIZE THIS MORE?
REBECCA: INSTEAD OF JUST GOING FROM PLACE TO PLACE,
IT'S LIKE, HOW DO YOU GET THAT CONSISTENTLY?
MICHAEL: RIGHT.
REBECCA: AND WITHIN A COMMUNITY.
MICHAEL: RIGHT.
AND THAT WAS PROBABLY THE BEGINNING SEEDS
THAT WERE PLANTED IN MY HEART
THAT WOULD BECOME UPPERROOM.
THAT WAS LATE 2008.
AND THEN I GOT MARRIED RIGHT IN THAT TIME,
WHICH WAS, YES, AMEN, SHOUT-OUT TO LORISA, MY WIFE.
REBECCA: AWW.
MICHAEL: SHE'S AWESOME.
REBECCA: HOW LONG HAVE Y'ALL BEEN MARRIED?
MICHAEL: WE'VE BEEN MARRIED 15 YEARS.
REBECCA: OH, THAT'S AWESOME.
MICHAEL: YEAH.
SO SHE'S, YEAH, SHE'S THE BEST.
AND AROUND THAT TIME, WE WERE GOING TO GO TO BETHEL.
WE WERE THINKING ABOUT GOING TO REDDING.
BUT THE LORD MADE IT VERY CLEAR
THAT THAT WASN'T IN HIS PLANS.
AND SHORTLY THEREAFTER,
WE HAD AN INVITATION FROM A BUSINESS LEADER
IN DOWNTOWN DALLAS.
HE HAD A ROOM THAT HE CALLED HIS UPPER ROOM.
IT OVERLOOKED DOWNTOWN DALLAS,
IT WAS ABOUT 5,000 SQUARE FEET,
AND HE WANTED TO HOST PRAYER.
SO IT WAS IN THE HOMOSEXUAL DISTRICT OF DALLAS, OAK LAWN.
REALLY DARK, KIND OF CHURCH-PLANTING GRAVEYARD.
LIKE, I SAW CHURCHES GO THERE AND DIE.
IT'S JUST A REALLY, REALLY CHALLENGING PLACE
TO PLANT A CHURCH.
AND WE STARTED A PRAYER MEETING
THAT I DIDN'T THINK WOULD BE A CHURCH.
I THOUGHT IT WOULD JUST BE A COUPLE OF WEEKS
AND THEN WE WOULD GO TO THE BURBS AND DO SOMETHING THERE.
REBECCA: [ LAUGHING ]
MICHAEL: BUT GOD HAD OTHER PLANS.
REBECCA: THAT IS SO WILD.
AND SO WHAT'S SO CRAZY IS, BECAUSE BETHEL IS GREAT,
BUT IT'S JUST, THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE TO BE LED BY THE LORD.
BECAUSE HE HAD ANOTHER PLAN FOR YOU,
AND THAT WAS JUST A FEW MONTHS
BEFORE YOU'RE GOING TO CONNECT WITH THIS.
THIS IS A MAN WHICH WOULD START THE PATH
IN THE PLANTING OF UPPERROOM.
SO YOU GUYS START MEETING, HAVING PRAYER.
SO DID YOU HAVE ANY THINKING,
OH, THIS IS GOING TO BE A CHURCH?
MICHAEL: I DIDN'T, HONESTLY.
REBECCA: YOU'RE THINKING MORE OF JUST LIKE
PRAYER WITHIN A COMMUNITY.
MICHAEL: I WAS LOOKING AT EMAILS FROM THE EARLY DAYS.
WE'VE BEEN KIND OF
WRITING DOWN OUR HISTORY.
AND SO THE EARLY EMAILS WERE LIKE,
WE'RE GOING TO PRAY FROM PASSOVER,
WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN APRIL OF THAT YEAR, TO PENTECOST.
WE WERE GOING TO DO SEVEN WEEKS.
BUT GOD SHOWED UP.
THERE WAS A TANGIBLE MARK, NOT ONLY OF HIS PRESENCE
BUT ALSO PEOPLE THAT HE WAS DRAWING TO THAT MEETING
IN THOSE SEVEN WEEKS.
SO WE DECIDED TO PUSH THROUGH THE SUMMER.
KEPT SAYING THIS ISN'T A CHURCH, ISN'T A CHURCH.
AND THEN PEOPLE STARTED MOVING DOWN INTO THAT AREA,
AND WE THOUGHT, NO, THIS IS A CHURCH.
WE NEED TO CALL IT WHAT IT IS.
AND WE HAD SOME SPIRITUAL PARENTS THAT HAD MOVED
DOWN INTO THAT AREA.
WE TOOK ON THEIR PRAYER HOURS,
THEY HAD A PRAYER ROOM IN THEIR LIVING ROOMS
SO THAT SET THE TONE FOR MORNING, NOON,
AND NIGHT PRAYER,
WHICH IS WHAT WE DO NOW.
REBECCA: EVERY DAY?
MICHAEL: EVERY DAY.
REBECCA: REALLY?
MICHAEL: 6 A.M. TO 8 P.M., WE PRAY.
WE HAVE FULL SETS, WHICH INCLUDES ALL THE MUSICIANS
AND SINGERS THREE TIMES A DAY,
BUT THEN THERE'S A LOT OF SETS HAPPENING IN BETWEEN THEM
THAT ARE A LITTLE MORE STRIPPED DOWN.
SO, YEAH, IT'S BEEN CRAZY, THE GRACE ON OUR HOUSE
TO BUILD THAT.
REBECCA: SO YOU, THAT WAS THE PEOPLE'S
PRAYER HOURS ORIGINALLY?
MICHAEL: MORNING, NOON, AND NIGHT.
SO I THINK WHEN YOU GET IN THE PRAYER REALM WORLD,
THERE'S A PRESSURE TO DO 24/7, OR HOW OFTEN ARE YOU PRAYING?
AND I WAS READING PSALMS 55,
I BELIEVE IT'S VERSE 17, AND IT SAYS, EVENING,
MORNING, AND NOON, I CRY OUT TO YOU.
AND I THOUGHT, WE CAN DO THAT.
WE CAN DO THREE TIMES A DAY.
REBECCA: THAT'S A LOT.
MICHAEL: AND SO - IT REALLY IS NOW,
LOOKING AT IT, BUT THERE'S JUST BEEN SUCH A GRACE
TO ALL VOLUNTEERS.
WE PROBABLY HAVE 3, 400 VOLUNTEERS
THAT ARE SERVING IN THE PLACE OF PRAYER.
OUR PRAYER MEETING 12-2 ON TUESDAY, YESTERDAY,
HAD 400 PEOPLE IN IT, SO.
REBECCA: THAT'S AMAZING.
MICHAEL: IT'S VIBRANT. IT'S ALIVE.
IT'S A FUN CONTEXT TO DO LIFE TOGETHER WITH PEOPLE
AROUND THE PRESENCE OF GOD, SO.
REBECCA: YEAH.
AND I LIKE THAT YOU SAID THERE'S A GRACE FOR IT.
IT'S LIKE WHATEVER GOD CALLS YOU TO DO,
HE'LL GIVE YOU THE GRACE TO DO IT.
AND YOU'RE NOT DOING IT, YOU'RE NOT STRIVING,
YOU'RE DOING IT IN HIS GRACE, HIS POWER.
AND IT'S FOR HIS GLORY.
OKAY.
SO IT BECOMES A CHURCH.
HOW LONG INTO IT DO YOU HAVE --
MICHAEL: PROBABLY A YEAR.
REBECCA: A YEAR?
MICHAEL: IT WAS A YEAR.
WE ACKNOWLEDGE, OKAY, THIS IS A CHURCH,
WE HAD AN ELDER STRUCTURE THAT WE PUT IN PLACE
AND STARTED TO DO SOME FORM OF COMMUNITY, BUT, REALLY,
IT WAS CENTERED AROUND PRAYER.
REBECCA: AND THEN WHEN DID Y'ALL MOVE FROM THIS, THAT UPPERROOM?
MICHAEL: TO THE DESIGN DISTRICT NOW WHERE WE'RE AT.
SO THERE WAS SO MUCH SENTIMENTAL AND EMOTIONAL CONNECTION
TO THAT ORIGINAL ROOM
THAT WE DIDN'T WANT TO LEAVE IT.
REBECCA: HOW LONG WERE Y'ALL THERE FOR?
HOW MANY YEARS?
MICHAEL: WE WERE THERE FOR FOUR YEARS.
2014.
AND THEN WE MOVED TO THE DESIGN DISTRICT,
WHICH IS JUST THE NEXT NEIGHBORHOOD OVER.
A VERY URBAN, ARTSY PART OF THE CITY.
AND SO WE GOT A COUPLE OF SUITES THERE
AND HAVE BEEN DOING THE SAME THING, JUST IN A NEW LOCATION.
REBECCA: WHAT WAS IT LIKE BEING IN,
FOR THOSE FOUR YEARS,
WHAT WAS IT LIKE BEING IN THAT,
WHAT WAS IT CALLED, THE GAY...
MICHAEL: YEAH, THE HOMOSEXUAL NEIGHBORHOOD, THE GAYBORHOOD.
REBECCA: YEAH, IN DALLAS.
WHAT WAS THAT EXPERIENCE LIKE?
MICHAEL: YEAH.
YOU KNOW, I WRESTLED - THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION,
I'M GLAD YOU ASKED THAT.
IT WAS NOT A NEIGHBORHOOD I WOULD HAVE CHOSEN.
LIKE I TOLD THE LORD MULTIPLE TIMES, LIKE,
I HAVE FRIENDS THAT ARE BURDENED FOR THIS COMMUNITY,
BUT I'M NOT.
LIKE, I LOVE ALL PEOPLE, BUT THIS JUST -
THIS ISN'T LIKE, PICK ME.
REBECCA: YEAH, IT WASN'T WHAT YOU WOULD HAVE PICKED.
IT WASN'T WHAT YOU HAD A BURDEN FOR.
MICHAEL: I WAS BEING HIT ON, LIKE AT COFFEE SHOPS.
AND WE OWNED ONE OF THE COFFEE SHOPS DOWN THERE,
WE ENDED UP, IT'S ANOTHER STORY.
BUT LIKE, HALF OUR CLIENTELE WAS HOMOSEXUAL.
AND SO IT'S JUST A STRONG CULTURE THERE.
AND SO I WAS WRESTLING WITH THE LORD.
I SAID, LORD, YOU FOUND THE WRONG GUY.
LIKE, I JUST -- I WANT TO MINISTER TO
PEOPLE LIKE ME, YOU KNOW.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT, I CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT EXACTLY
CONVERSATIONS WERE, BUT THE LORD TOLD ME VERY CLEARLY ONE DAY,
HE SAID, SON,
I DIDN'T FIRST CALL YOU DOWN HERE TO MINISTER TO PEOPLE.
I CALLED YOU DOWN HERE TO MINISTER TO ME.
AND THAT PHRASE, MINISTER TO ME, BOTHERED ME.
AND I WENT ON A JOURNEY OF DISCOVERING
WHAT MINISTRY TO THE LORD WAS,
WHICH WAS SO CRITICAL TO THE DNA
THAT WE NOW HAVE OF FIRST LOVE,
OF MINISTERING TO THE LORD AS FIRST LOVE.
IT'S OFTENTIMES THE WORD WORSHIP IS TRANSLATED
IN OLDER VERSIONS OF THE BIBLE,
OLDER TRANSLATIONS AS MINISTER TO THE LORD
AND YOU'LL SEE THAT IN THE BIBLE.
AND SO WE JUST STARTED LEARNING, OKAY,
THIS IS OUR PRIMARY MINISTRY,
IT IS MINISTERING TO GOD, WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE
FOR US TO BUILD A CHURCH THAT'S FIRST ATTRACTIVE TO THE LORD
BECAUSE OF THE CONTEXT WE WERE IN.
AND STRANGELY ENOUGH, THE HOMOSEXUAL COMMUNITY
STARTED COMING INTO THAT ENVIRONMENT
AND ENCOUNTERING GOD.
BECAUSE THE GOAL WASN'T TO, QUOTE, UNQUOTE,
CONVERT THEM.
IT WAS TO LOVE HIM AND THEN INTRODUCE THEM
TO THE ONE THAT WE WERE LOVING.
AND SO WE SAW SO MUCH EVANGELISM IN THE PLACE OF PRAYER
OR IN THE PLACE OF WORSHIP.
PEOPLE COME TO KNOW THE LORD BECAUSE HE WAS PRESENT IN THERE.
AND THERE'S SOME AWESOME TESTIMONIES
IN THOSE EARLY DAYS
ABOUT THE HOMOSEXUAL COMMUNITY,
PEOPLE COMING OUT OF THAT LIFESTYLE.
SO IT WAS BEAUTIFUL.
REBECCA: THAT'S SO COOL.
SO GOD TOOK, HE USED THAT CONUNDRUM WHERE YOU'RE LIKE,
WHAT IS GOING ON HERE,
FOR HIM TO TEACH YOU, DO IT FOR ME.
AND THEN WHEN Y'ALL SOUGHT HIM, WHEN HE CAME,
IT ATTRACTED THAT COMMUNITY
THAT YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO STRIVE IN
OR TRY TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN,
OR TRY TO MAKE IT WORK,
AND YOU SPIRITUALLY GREW IN AN AREA
THAT WAS -- WHERE MOST PEOPLE WOULD NOT,
BECAUSE YOU WERE SEEKING HIM.
YOU WEREN'T DOING IT IN AND OF YOURSELF.
AND SO THE GAY COMMUNITY WAS ATTRACTED,
BECAUSE THE PRESENCE OF GOD IS ATTRACTIVE,
ESPECIALLY TO THOSE WHO ARE EMPTY AND WHO ARE SEEKING
AND WHO ARE HUNGRY.
AND IT WILL ATTRACT ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE.
SO SHARE MAYBE A TESTIMONY,
ONE OF YOUR FAVORITES.
MICHAEL: YEAH.
I THINK FIRST LOVE, THAT ADORATION,
A GROUP OF PEOPLE DOING IT,
IT PROVOKES SOMETHING IN THOSE AROUND IT.
THEY EITHER RUN FROM IT OR RUN TO IT.
THERE'S NO NEUTRAL GROUND IN IT.
AND SO, YEAH.
WE HAD A COUPLE OF TESTIMONIES IN THOSE EARLY DAYS.
ONE OF MY FAVORITES WAS A MAN WHO,
HE WAS A DRAG QUEEN IN OAK LAWN THAT MADE A LIVING
FROM TRAVELING FROM PARADE TO PARADE IN THIS WORLD.
HE HAD A NAME THAT WENT WITH HIS DRAG QUEEN PERSONA
AND ALL THAT, YEAH.
AND ANYWAYS, HE HAD A SOVEREIGN ENCOUNTER WITH GOD
IN HIS LIVING ROOM, AND SOMEONE TOLD HIM ABOUT OUR CHURCH,
AND HE HAD BEEN ATTENDING OUR CHURCH
FOR A COUPLE OF MONTHS PRIOR TO ME MEETING HIM.
AND IT WAS SUNDAYS IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD,
THERE WAS ONE SUNDAY A YEAR WHERE THE GAY PRIDE PARADE
WOULD BE IN OUR NEIGHBORHOOD.
TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE COME DOWN.
IT'S WILD.
THE PARADE ENDS AT 4:00, OUR CHURCH STARTS AT 5:00.
SO IT WAS ALWAYS A UNIQUE SUNDAY NIGHT.
WE PREACHED THE GOSPEL,
BUT IT WAS AFTER ONE OF THOSE NIGHTS
THAT THIS MAN APPROACHED ME AND SAID,
HEY, YOU NEED TO KNOW MY STORY.
I WAS IN THE PARADE.
I WAS IN IT LAST YEAR,
AND I'VE SINCE GIVEN MY LIFE TO JESUS,
I'M A PART OF YOUR CHURCH.
AND I ASKED HIM, I SAID,
WHAT IS IT THAT YOU'VE EXPERIENCED?
AND HE TALKED ABOUT THE PRESENCE OF GOD.
HE SAID, WHEN YOU GUYS START SINGING,
I FEEL LIKE SOMEONE'S EMBRACING ME,
I FEEL LIKE I'M ENCOUNTERING THAT PERSON
THAT I ENCOUNTERED IN THE LIVING ROOM.
AND SO THAT BEGAN HIS DISCIPLESHIP PROGRAM,
WAS COMING TO PRAYER AND ENGAGING GOD'S PRESENCE.
AND NOW HE'S BEEN WALKING WITH THE LORD FOR ALMOST A DECADE.
REBECCA: I LOVE THAT.
MICHAEL: IT'S A REALLY COOL, COOL STORY, YEAH.
REBECCA: WHAT WAS IT LIKE GOING FROM THE BUILDING IN DALLAS
TO THE DESIGN DISTRICT IN DALLAS?
WHAT -- DID YOU SEE A SHIFT?
MICHAEL: WE DID.
WE DIDN'T, SO IN THE EARLY DAYS, WE DIDN'T DO MEDIA.
WE DIDN'T HAVE A WEBSITE, WE DIDN'T DO FACEBOOK,
WE DID NO SOCIALS.
WE FELT FROM THE LORD REALLY CLEARLY, DON'T MARK IT.
SO IT WAS CALLED UPPERROOM BECAUSE THE BUILDING
WAS ORIGINALLY DESCRIBED AS AN UPPERROOM
BY THE LEADER, OR THE BUSINESS OWNER.
IN 2016, WE HAD A WORD FROM A FRIEND
THAT THE LORD WAS PUTTING IN HDMI CABLE
AND READY TO SPEAK THROUGH MEDIA.
SO WE GOT A YOUTUBE CHANNEL
AND JUST STARTED PUTTING MOMENTS OF OUR CULTURE,
WORSHIP CULTURE, ONLINE,
AND IT JUST WENT BONKERS.
LIKE, I THINK THE SECOND OR THIRD MOMENT
HAD MILLIONS OF VIEWS
WITHIN A COUPLE OF WEEKS.
REBECCA: OH, MY GOSH.
MICHAEL: ONE OF THEM WAS A,
ONE OF THE EARLY MOMENTS THAT WE DID,
IT WAS A SPONTANEOUS SONG THAT ALYSSA SMITH CAME UP
AND TOLD THE BAND WHAT KEY TO PLAY,
BUT THEY HAD NEVER PLAYED IT,
SHE HAD NEVER SUNG IT OUTSIDE OF
A PRAYER MEETING BY HERSELF.
MAYBE HER BROTHER WAS THERE,
BUT IT WAS AN EMPTY ROOM THAT SHE HAD GOTTEN THIS SONG,
JUST MINISTERING TO THE LORD AND SINGING TO HIM,
BUT IT WAS SURROUNDED.
IT MAY LOOK LIKE I'M SURROUNDED,
BUT I'M SURROUNDED BY YOU.
THIS IS HOW I FIGHT MY BATTLES.
SO THAT WAS ONE OF THE FIRST FIVE OR SIX MOMENTS
THAT WE PUT OUT THERE.
AND MICHAEL W. SMITH CALLED AND HE WAS LIKE, HEY,
WE'RE MISSING ONE SONG ON THIS NEXT WORSHIP ALBUM.
WE THINK THIS IS IT.
AND SO WE CONNECTED HIM TO ALYSSA AND SHE JOURNEYED
WITH MICHAEL W. AND HE CALLED HIS ALBUM
SURROUNDED, BASED ON THAT SONG.
REBECCA: YEAH, I KNOW THE ALBUM YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
MICHAEL: YEAH, IT WAS CRAZY HOW THE LORD JUST
PUT A WINDOW ON THIS LITTLE COMMUNITY
THAT HAD BEEN MINISTERING TO HIM.
WE HAD NO DESIRE TO REALLY CREATE WHAT'S BEEN CREATED.
I JUST WANTED TO BUILD A CULTURE
THAT WAS FOR THE PRESENCE OF GOD, BUT I REALLY,
REALLY SEE NOW HOW THE LORD'S FINGERPRINTS WERE
ON THOSE BEGINNINGS AND THE DNA WAS PUTTING INSIDE OF US
AND REALLY, I THINK, BRINGING THIS TO THE CHURCH AT LARGE.
REBECCA: YEAH.
AND WHAT'S COOL IS WHEN THE TIME WAS RIGHT,
WHEN THINGS WERE ESTABLISHED AND WHEN THE TIME WAS RIGHT,
HE OPENED THAT DOOR SO HE COULD
EXPAND WHAT WAS GOING ON TO A BIGGER AUDIENCE.
BUT WHAT I LOVE IS JUST YOUR STORY IS REALLY -
WHAT'S COOL ABOUT IT IS JUST A SPIRIT-LED STORY
OF HOW GOD IS VERY INTENTIONAL
AND HE DOES THE RIGHT THING AT THE RIGHT TIME,
AND YOU HONORED THAT.
AND SO BECAUSE OF THAT, THERE WAS THIS POSITIVE IMPACT,
AND IT WASN'T SOMETHING --
IT'S SOMETHING THAT ADDED TO INSTEAD OF TAKING AWAY.
BECAUSE YOU DID IT IN THE RIGHT TIME,
WHICH IS BEAUTIFUL.
MICHAEL: RIGHT.
REBECCA: SO THAT IS A HUGE SHIFT.
AND I KNOW THAT, BECAUSE I'VE BEEN TO YOUR CHURCH,
IT'S A GREAT CHURCH, THAT IT'S BEEN BOOMING,
LIKE IT'S SO, THANK GOD YOU MOVED TO THAT BUILDING
BECAUSE THAT BUILDING IS ABOUT TO
OVERFLOW, OVERFLOW.
MICHAEL: IT'S FULL NOW, SO, YEAH,
IT'S BEEN A BLESSING AND THEN SUCH A CHALLENGE TOO
JUST WITH SO MANY PEOPLE.
REBECCA: HOW MANY YEARS HAVE YOU BEEN
IN THAT BUILDING NOW?
MICHAEL: WE GOT IN IN '14.
SO I BELIEVE IT WAS '14.
REBECCA: SO ALMOST...
MICHAEL: ABOUT SEVEN, EIGHT YEARS.
REBECCA: YEAH.
MICHAEL: SO, NO, IT'S '16.
WE PLANTED A CHURCH IN DENVER IN '14.
SO IT WAS '16.
SO THAT'S SEVEN YEARS.
AND WE'RE - NEW BUILDING, HOPEFULLY EARLY SPRING.
REBECCA: ARE YOU GOING TO BE STILL IN
THE DALLAS AREA, THE NEW BUILDING?
MICHAEL: SOUTH OF TOWN.
IT'S IN THE CEDARS, WHICH IS STILL IN
URBAN DOWNTOWN AREA.
A LITTLE MORE INNER CITIES,
SO THERE'S SOME OPPORTUNITIES TO REACH OUR CITY,
THE SOUTH OF TOWN.
AND SO I'M EXCITED ABOUT THOSE OPPORTUNITIES,
BUT WE'LL BE DOING THE SAME THING.
[ LAUGHING ]
REBECCA: YEAH.
MICHAEL: MORNING, NOON, AND NIGHT.
REBECCA: YOU'RE STILL - IT'S STILL THAT SAME DNA.
MICHAEL: IT'S REAL SIMPLE.
REBECCA: DO YOU THINK IT'S GOING TO BE,
THERE'S GOING TO BE A SHIFT THERE
WITH THAT NEW BUILDING?
MICHAEL: I HOPE NOT.
I THINK WHAT WE DO IS, WE DON'T DO A LOT WELL,
BUT WE DO THIS ONE THING FAIRLY WELL, AND SO -
REBECCA: WHICH IS HOSTING THE PRESENCE OF GOD.
MICHAEL: JUST MORE OF THE SAME.
AND IT DOES BURST STRATEGIES,
AND SO I'LL BE INTERESTED TO SEE WHAT COMES OUT OF
OUR INITIAL DAYS AND HOW TO REACH
THAT DEMOGRAPHIC THERE.
IT'S MINORITIES, THERE'S A LOT OF AFRICAN AMERICAN,
A LOT OF LATINOS THAT I'M STOKED TO HAVE.
WE HAVE A PRETTY DIVERSE COMMUNITY NOW,
BUT I JUST REALLY HAVE A PASSION FOR
THE SOUTH SIDE OF TOWN,
AND SO IT'S GOING TO BE COOL TO SEE
HOW WE CAN REACH THEM.
REBECCA: THAT'S SO AWESOME.
SO HOW - WHEN IS THE PROJECTED TIME?
MICHAEL: PENTECOST OF 2024.
REBECCA: OH, I HOPE IT HAPPENS.
THAT WOULD BE AMAZING.
MICHAEL: UPPERROOM, PENTECOST,
IT'S ALWAYS - I TELL PEOPLE,
DON'T NAME YOUR CHURCH UPPERROOM BECAUSE
PENTECOST IS ONCE A YEAR EVERY YEAR,
AND BIG THINGS BETTER HAPPEN.
[ LAUGHING ]
MICHAEL: HOLY SPIRIT BETTER BE PRESENT.
SO HOPEFULLY THAT WILL BE A GOOD WAY
TO KICK OFF OUR NEW HOME.
REBECCA: THAT'S SO AWESOME.
WHAT LESSONS CAN WE LEARN FROM DAVID
WITH HIS SINGLE-MINDED FOCUS ON GOD?
MICHAEL: YEAH.
I LOVE THE STORY OF DAVID.
REBECCA: ME TOO.
IT'S MY FAVORITE.
MICHAEL: HE'S ESTEEMED, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT DAVID,
A LOT OF TIMES, WE TALK ABOUT
JUST THE HALLMARK OF HIS LEADERSHIP.
HE WAS PROBABLY THE GREATEST LEADER
IN ISRAEL'S HISTORY.
AND SO WE TALK ABOUT HIS RESUME, IT'S SIGNIFICANT.
BUT SOMETIMES I THINK WE MISS
WHAT MADE DAVID, DAVID.
IT WASN'T JUST THE SKILLS THAT HE CARRIED,
IT WASN'T JUST THAT HE COULD DEFEAT GIANTS.
THERE'S A LOT TO STUDY OUT OF HIS LIFE,
BUT I THINK ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS
IS A PSALM THAT SOLOMON WROTE, THEY THINK,
IT WAS PSALMS 132.
AND I CALL IT THE MOUNT EVEREST OF THE SALTER,
SO IF THE PSALMS CHAPTERS WERE MOUNTAINS,
I WOULD SAY PSALMS 132 IS THE HIGHEST
JUST TO UNDERSTAND DAVID,
BECAUSE DAVID WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR
MOST OF THE PSALMS BEING WRITTEN.
AND HE MADE A VOW WITH GOD.
WE DON'T KNOW WHEN HE MADE A VOW,
BUT I'M ASSUMING IT WAS IN THOSE EARLY SHEEP DAYS
WHEN HE WAS A SHEPHERD,
BUT HE MADE A VOW IN VERSE 5
THAT HE WOULD FIND A RESTING PLACE FOR THE LORD.
AND I THINK THAT MARKED HIS LIFE.
I THINK HE WAS MARKED BY THIS PURSUIT
TO FIND A RESTING PLACE FOR THE LORD,
AND I DON'T THINK IT WAS JUST DAVID'S DESIRE.
I THINK HE FOUND THE SUPREME DESIRE IN GOD.
AND THAT PUT A GRACE ON HIS LIFE AND LEADERSHIP
TO BE WHO HE WOULD BECOME.
AND JESUS WILL SIT ON THE THRONE OF DAVID.
THE DAVIDIC COVENANT, IT'S SIGNIFICANT THEOLOGICALLY,
BUT I THINK DISCOVERING WHAT MADE DAVID, DAVID
IN PSALMS 132 IS, TO ME, JUST QUINTESSENTIAL.
IT'S LIKE THE MARK OF DAVID,
EVEN WHEN HE STOOD UP BEFORE THE NATION OF ISRAEL
AS KING BOTH OVER JUDAH AND ISRAEL
IN 1 CHRONICLES 13:3, HE SAYS,
HERE'S WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO.
HERE'S WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO UNDER MY LEADERSHIP.
WE'RE GOING TO SEEK THE ARK OF GOD
FOR WE DIDN'T IN THE DAYS OF SAUL.
THIS IS WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT ME.
I AM SEEKING THIS ONE THING.
AND I THINK GOD'S RAISING UP DAVIDS TODAY
THAT ARE GOING TO PUT THE ARK OF GOD
BEFORE THE PEOPLE OF GOD.
THEY'RE NOT GOING TO TAKE GOD'S PLACE.
AND I THINK WE'VE ANOINTED MEN AND LOOKED TO MEN,
THEIR LEADERSHIP SKILLS, THEIR LEADERSHIP GIFTINGS,
AND WE'RE - I THINK WE NEED MORE THAN THAT.
WE NEED MORE THAN JUST GOOD LEADERS IN THE CHURCH.
WE NEED THE LEADERSHIP OF JESUS.
AND I THINK -
REBECCA: HE'S THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH.
MICHAEL: RESTING PLACES FOR HIM WILL ESTABLISH THAT.
SO I'M REALLY PASSIONATE ABOUT IT.
REBECCA: WE'RE DOING A DISSERVICE,
EVEN THOUGH IT'S WELL-INTENDED,
WE'RE DOING PEOPLE A DISSERVICE
IF WE'RE HAVING PEOPLE LOOK TO MEN.
THEY CAN'T JUST BE MEN.
WE HAVE TO BE LED, LIKE YOU SAID, BY JESUS,
AND WE HAVE TO LET HIS CHURCHES BE A HOUSE
FOR HIS PRESENCE.
AND WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO PEOPLE
WHO MAYBE HAVE LOST SIGHT OF THAT IN THEIR CHURCH?
MICHAEL: I THINK THE CALL IN THIS HOUR IS SIMPLICITY.
I THINK THINGS CULTURALLY ARE SO COMPLEX.
WHEN PEOPLE WALK OUT OF THE WALLS OF A CHURCH
AND WHAT THEY SEE ON THEIR PHONES,
WHAT THEY SEE ON THEIR TELEVISIONS,
THERE'S SO MANY COMPLEXITIES.
THERE'S QUESTIONS, SEXUALITY, GENDER,
JUST THE VARIOUS THINGS THAT YOUNG PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY,
ARE STRUGGLING WITH,
AND I THINK INSIDE THE CHURCH WALLS,
IT HAS TO GET SIMPLE.
AND I THINK IT'S 2 CORINTHIANS 11:3,
PAUL SAID, I'M CALLING YOU BACK TO THE SIMPLICITY
AND PURITY OF DEVOTING YOURSELF TO JESUS.
AND I THINK THERE'S A REAL NEED FOR SIMPLICITY,
BUT WITH SIMPLICITY COMES PURITY, TOO.
AND SO I THINK I'M WATCHING GEN Z,
MILLENNIALS, YOUNG PEOPLE,
COME INTO AN ENVIRONMENT THAT'S REALLY SIMPLE,
IT'S REALLY SINGULAR IN WHAT WE DO,
BUT IT'S UNLOCKING SOMETHING IN THEIR HEART.
AND PUTTING THE BIBLICAL NARRATIVE BEFORE THEM
IN THAT CONTEXT,
HAS BROUGHT A CONVICTION THAT IS
CHANGING THEIR LIVES AND THEY'RE REALLY LINING UP
THEIR LIVES WITH THE AUTHORITY OF THE WORD,
THE AUTHORITY OF THE SCRIPTURES,
GETTING IN COMMUNITY, DOING LIFE TOGETHER.
IT JUST SEEMS LIKE THE BIBLE IS REALLY CLEAR
AND REALLY SIMPLE AROUND
WHAT WE AS HIS PEOPLE NEED TO BE DOING.
AND SO I WOULD ENCOURAGE LEADERS, LIKE JUST GET BACK
TO THE SIMPLICITY AND PURITY OF MAKING IT ABOUT JESUS,
PREACHING JESUS, PREACHING THE GOSPEL REGULARLY,
NOT SHYING AWAY FROM SOME OF THESE
CULTURAL JUST BABBLES THAT ARE ATTEMPTING TO
HIJACK SO MANY YOUNG PEOPLE.
WE NEED TO SPEAK CLEARLY ABOUT SEXUALITY,
CLEARLY ABOUT GENDER.
THESE THINGS, THE BIBLE IS VERY CLEAR ON IT,
AND I JUST DON'T THINK WE SHOULD SHY AWAY FROM IT.
BUT IN THE CONTEXT OF AN ENVIRONMENT
THAT'S HOSTING THE PRESENCE OF GOD,
BECAUSE I THINK IT GIVES THEM A CONTEXT
WHERE THEY CAN ACTUALLY HEAR WHAT WE'RE SAYING.
REBECCA: THAT'S SO GOOD.
SIMPLICITY ALSO, I THINK, TO ME,
WHAT COMES TO MIND WITH SIMPLICITY IS REST
AND ALSO HUMILITY.
WHEN YOU MAKE THINGS COMPLEX AND YOU MAKE IT
ABOUT ALL THAT YOU KNOW,
IT'S THIS KNOWLEDGE PUFFS US UP.
BUT WHEN YOU HUMBLE YOURSELF BEFORE HIM
AND YOU SEEK HIM IN SIMPLICITY
AND YOU DON'T MAKE IT ABOUT WHAT YOU CAN DO
BUT ABOUT WHAT HE DID FOR US,
IT'S REALLY BECAUSE WHAT -
HE DID THE COMPLICATED PART FOR US
THAT WE CAN ACTUALLY SEEK HIM IN SIMPLICITY.
HE MADE THE WAY FOR US SIMPLE.
HE'S THE WAY, THE TRUTH, THE LIGHT, RIGHT.
AND THAT HE WANTS US TO SEEK -
HE WANTS IT TO BE SIMPLE BECAUSE HE WANTS US
TO BE WITH HIM.
WE JUST SEEK HIM IN SIMPLICITY AND HUMILITY,
AND HE WILL MEET US.
AND AS YOU GO THROUGH YOUR DAY-TO-DAY LIFE,
YOU BUILD THIS RELATIONSHIP
THAT IT'S EASY TO COME INTO HIS PRESENCE,
IT'S EASY TO HEAR HIS VOICE.
IT'S EASY.
AND WHEN YOU MAKE YOUR CHURCH ABOUT
MINISTERING TO HIM,
ONE OF THE THINGS YOU'VE SAID IS,
IT'S NOT - LOVING GOD, I HAVE IT HERE, IT SAYS,
LOVING PEOPLE IS NOT LOVING GOD.
LOVING GOD IS LOVING GOD.
AND I THINK THAT'S A VERY IMPORTANT DISTINCTION TO MAKE
BECAUSE I THINK PEOPLE TWIST
OR THEY SWITCH IT UP.
THEY THINK I NEED TO LOVE PEOPLE FIRST,
BUT WE NEED TO LOVE GOD FIRST.
MICHAEL: YES.
I THINK THAT IS SPOT ON.
WE'VE EXCHANGED THE FIRST COMMANDMENT -
WE'VE ATTEMPTED TO FULFILL THE FIRST COMMANDMENT
BY DOING THE SECOND.
SO JESUS WAS REALLY CLEAR IN PRIORITY,
FIRST AND FOREMOST, IS TO LOVE GOD,
AND THEN LOVING PEOPLE.
AND SO I'VE TALKED ABOUT MY WIFE A LOT.
TONIGHT, WEDNESDAY NIGHT,
WHICH IS THE HOLIEST OF HOLY NIGHTS
IN THE MILLER HOUSEHOLD, IS DATE NIGHT,
WHICH MEANS I'M TAKING MY WIFE OUT,
AND IT WILL BE A DEVOTED TIME TO HER.
AND SO SHE'S NOT HERE, I LOVE HER,
I CAN SPEAK HIGHLY OF HER AND I LOVE HER
IN A LOT OF CONTEXT
IN A LOT OF WAYS, BUT WEDNESDAY NIGHT
IS ME DEVOTING TIME TO LOVING HER.
I KNOW WHAT SHE LIKES,
I KNOW MOST LIKELY WHERE SHE'S GOING TO WANT TO GO EAT
AND WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO,
AND IT'S GOING TO BE A TIME OF CONNECTION,
AND I THINK WE NEED STRATEGIES
IN COMMUNITIES OF FAITH ON A LOCAL LEVEL.
WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE FOR US TO DO THAT TOGETHER
WITH THE LORD?
I THINK THERE'S A GREAT IMITATION.
LOVING HIM LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING.
AND SO WE NEED TO BRING DEFINITION TO IT.
AND SONG, OF COURSE, IS IMPORTANT FOR THAT,
BUT, YEAH, THAT MINISTRY TO HIM, LOVING HIM,
I THINK IT'S REALLY, REALLY CRUCIAL.
AND THAT WILL ACTUALLY FUEL THE SECOND ONE.
IT WILL FUEL IT.
IT WILL ADD KEROSENE TO THE GREAT COMMISSION,
TO GETTING PEOPLE INTO THEIR SPHERES OF INFLUENCE
THAT WILL POSITION THEM TO BE
I THINK, SALT AND LIGHT.
SO IT'S NOT FORSAKING THE SECOND COMMANDMENT,
IT'S JUST ESTABLISHING THE FIRST ONE
IN ITS RIGHTFUL PLACE.
REBECCA: ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU SAID,
BECAUSE I WANT TO HIGHLIGHT THIS POINT
ONE MORE TIME WITH DAVID,
IS HE WAS DIFFERENT BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAID
HE WAS A MAN AFTER GOD'S OWN HEART,
BUT I THINK YOU TAPPED ON WHY HE WAS A MAN
AFTER GOD'S OWN HEART,
IS BECAUSE HE PURSUED GOD FIRST
AND HIS PRESENCE,
AND THAT WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO HIM.
AND WHAT'S SO INTERESTING IS THAT
DAVID WANTED TO BUILD THE HOUSE OF GOD,
BUT GOD SAYS, NO, NO, NO.
AND I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY, I JUST REMEMBER HEARING,
AND I MIGHT BOTCH THIS, YOU CAN CORRECT ME,
I HEARD A DEREK PRINCE TEACHING
TALKING ABOUT IT, AND HE SAYS,
WE GO TO GOD WITH OUR PLANS, BUT GOD SAYS,
I HAVE SOMETHING SO MUCH BIGGER, DAVID,
I'M GOING TO ESTABLISH A HOUSE FOR YOU.
AND HOW THROUGH THE HOUSE OF DAVID,
THE MESSIAH WOULD COME AND JESUS WOULD SIT
ON THAT THRONE.
AND SO GOD HAS EVEN SOMETHING BIGGER.
BUT I JUST THINK THAT'S SO COOL,
IS THAT WHAT WE COULD EVER IMAGINE
OR DREAM UP IN OUR MINDS,
GOD HAS SOMETHING SO MUCH BIGGER FOR US,
WE JUST HAVE TO BE SUBMISSIVE AND OBEY,
WHICH IS WHAT DAVID DID, BUT BECAUSE HE MADE HIS LIFE
ABOUT THE PRESENCE OF GOD,
YOU SEE THAT LINEAGE AND THAT HISTORY
WHERE HIS SON WOULD END UP BUILDING THE TEMPLE.
MICHAEL: YES, YES.
I THINK DAVID'S GREATEST MARK AS A LEADER
WAS HIS ABILITY TO FOLLOW THE LORD.
AND IT SEEMS SUBTLE, BUT I THINK GOD'S LOOKING FOR
PEOPLE THAT AREN'T LEADERS FOR HIM,
BUT THEY'RE FIRST, FOLLOWERS OF HIM.
AND THAT ACTUALLY POSITIONS THEIR LEADERSHIP.
AND THEN YOU ENTER INTO THAT REALM
OF THE IMMEASURABLY MORE.
AND I THINK DAVID, YOU SEE THAT IN 2 SAMUEL,
WHERE HE'S CORRECTED BY NATHAN,
BUT IT'S AN INTERESTING EXCHANGE,
BUT HE MAKES COVENANT WITH HIM AND SAYS,
HEY, I'M GOING TO ESTABLISH A HOUSE THROUGH YOUR SON
AND THEN YOUR KINGDOM, YOUR THRONE, WILL BE ETERNAL.
HE MAKES THAT COVENANT WITH HIM THAT -
REBECCA: LIKE THAT'S SO CRAZY.
HE LIKE TOOK DAVID AND HE LIKE EXTENDED IT OUT.
HE MADE IT SO MUCH BIGGER.
MICHAEL: IT'S FASCINATING.
REBECCA: IT'S SO CRAZY.
AND I DON'T KNOW, THE HUMILITY OF GOD
THAT HE WAS LIKE, I'LL SIT ON YOUR THRONE.
LIKE, I DON'T KNOW, I JUST THINK GOD'S SO COOL.
MICHAEL: YEAH. YEAH.
AND JESUS IS THE ROOT OF DAVID.
SO JESUS WAS SOURCING.
REBECCA: THAT'S, LIKE, MINDBLOWING.
MICHAEL: I KNOW.
AND THEN JESUS WILL ACTUALLY SIT ON
THE THRONE OF DAVID,
SO YOU SEE HOW INTEGRAL HIS LIFE,
LEADERSHIP, THE ANOINTING.
AND, YEAH, I LOVE STUDYING HIS LIFE
AND THE RAMIFICATIONS FOR US AS LEADERS TODAY,
WHAT MADE DAVID, DAVID.
REBECCA: AND IT REALLY JUST SHOWS
GOD'S HEART FOR US TO BE IN A FAMILY WITH HIM,
AND THAT EVEN CAME DOWN AND THROUGH...
MICHAEL: SOLOMON, YEAH.
REBECCA: YEAH, THROUGH THAT LINE,
HE WOULD BRING HIS SON, WHO WOULD BE GOD INCARNATE
WHO WOULD THEN COME TO SAVE ALL OF US,
THAT ALL WHO WOULD BELIEVE IN HIM
COULD COME INTO THE FAMILY OF GOD.
SO GOD IS ALL ABOUT FAMILY,
AND THAT'S WHY THE CHURCH LIKE, IT'S HIS HOME.
IT'S LIKE, THAT'S WHY IT'S LIKE WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND
GOD AS A FATHER,
AND THAT JESUS IS HIS SON,
AND THAT GOD IS ALL ABOUT FAMILY,
A FATHER WANTS TO BE WITH HIS CHILDREN,
THAT'S WHY WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT CHURCH,
YOU MAKE IT ABOUT HIM AND THAT HE WANTS
TO BE WITH US IN HIS PRESENCE.
MICHAEL: YES, YES.
REBECCA: AND IT'S LIKE THE MOST BEAUTIFUL PICTURE,
AND HOW COULD ANYONE NOT WANT
TO WORSHIP THAT GOD OR LOVE THAT GOD?
AND I THINK IT GOES BACK TO THAT PLACE OF SIMPLICITY,
AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE'S HEARTS
ARE CRYING OUT FOR, IS THAT KIND OF LOVE.
MICHAEL: YES, FOR SURE.
YEAH, THE FAMILY OF GOD, I THINK THE LOCAL CHURCH
IS THE SLEEPING BEAUTY THAT'S EMERGING IN THIS HOUR.
I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF NATIONAL MOVEMENTS
AND THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING ON BIG, BIG SCALES,
EVENTS, AND I APPLAUD THOSE.
BUT THE POWER OF A GROUP OF PEOPLE LIVING IN PROXIMITY
TO THE PRESENCE OF GOD TOGETHER,
IT'S NUCLEAR.
THERE'S SOMETHING REALLY SPECIAL ABOUT THAT.
AND SO I WANT TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE,
IF YOU DON'T HAVE COMMUNITY,
PRAY THAT THE LORD WOULD CALL YOU INTO THAT COMMUNITY
TO FIND THAT FAMILY THAT HE'S GRAFTED YOU INTO.
BECAUSE OUR CALLINGS AND THE GRACE ON OUR LIFE
IS CONNECTED TO THAT.
IT'S CONNECTED TO SOMETHING BIGGER THAN OURSELVES,
AND SO JUST TO FIND THAT CONTEXT
THAT HE'S CALLING YOU TO, IT'S IMPORTANT.
REBECCA: WELL, THIS HAS BEEN SUCH A GOOD CONVERSATION.
I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU IF THERE'S ANY LAST COMMENTS
OR ANY WORD OF ENCOURAGEMENT
FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE LISTENING?
MICHAEL: I HAVE ENJOYED IT.
YOU WERE GREAT AT INTERVIEWING ME.
REBECCA: AW, THANK YOU.
MICHAEL: THIS HAS BEEN REALLY GOOD.
NO, I THINK WE'VE COVERED SO MUCH.
I JUST WOULD ENCOURAGE ANYONE THAT IS WRESTLING
WITH THEIR FAITH, WRESTLING WITH QUESTIONS,
AGAIN, WE TALKED ABOUT THE SIMPLICITY,
BUT JUST STARTING TO HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THE LORD,
TO BRING HIM WHATEVER IT IS THAT YOU HAVE,
AND I BELIEVE HE WILL MEET YOU.
THE BIBLE SAYS IF WE DRAW NEAR TO HIM,
HE'LL DRAW NEAR TO US.
AND SO A PODCAST IN THE VARIOUS WAYS
THAT WE'RE INFORMED ABOUT THE LORD,
THESE ARE SUPPLEMENTAL TO THEM CONNECTING TO HIM.
AND SO JUST EVEN AFTER THEY PUSH STOP ON THIS PODCAST,
THEY WOULD TAKE FIVE MINUTES
AND JUST ENGAGE HIM,
ENGAGE HIM WITH THEIR HEART,
ENGAGE HIM WITH WHATEVER THEY'RE FACING,
ALLOW HIM TO FACE IT WITH YOU.
THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO ENCOURAGE SOMEONE.
REBECCA: THAT'S AWESOME.
AND CAN YOU JUST CLOSE WITH A PRAYER?
MICHAEL: OF COURSE.
YEAH.
SO, JESUS, WE ARE SO HONORED AND GRATEFUL
FOR YOUR LOVE AND FOR YOUR LIFE ON THE EARTH
AND FOR THE SACRIFICE THAT YOU MADE AND THE PROVISION
THAT WE FIND IN THE CROSS.
AND, LORD, IT IS WHAT WE NEED.
ANYONE LISTENING TO THE SOUND OF MY VOICE
THAT YOUR CROSS IN CALVARY
IS SUFFICIENT FOR THEM TODAY.
YOUR BLOOD, YOUR BODY, YOUR SPIRIT,
THAT YOU WOULD GIVE THEM FAITH TO TURN TO YOU
AND TO RECEIVE WHATEVER IT IS THAT THEY NEED RIGHT NOW.
IF IT'S PEACE, IF IT'S LOVE,
IF IT'S SIGNIFICANCE OF SEEING THEMSELVES
IN LIGHT OF HOW YOU SEE THEM,
I PRAY, LORD JESUS,
THAT YOU WOULD GIVE THEM PERSPECTIVE,
RENEWAL OF MIND, AND THAT YOU WOULD TOUCH THEM
AND THAT YOU WOULD GIVE THEM FRESH HOPE AND FAITH
FOR WHATEVER THEY'RE FACING,
THAT YOUR FACE IS IN THEIR HEART.
YOU PUT THE FACE OF YOUR SON INSIDE
EVERY BORN-AGAIN BELIEVER,
AND THAT YOUR FACE IS FACING ALL
THAT THEY'LL FACE.
AND SO I PRAY THAT COURAGE AND HOPE ABOUNDS.
IN JESUS' NAME, AMEN.
REBECCA: AMEN.
MICHAEL: AMEN.
REBECCA: WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
MICHAEL: YES, WHAT AN HONOR.
REBECCA: FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO GET CONNECTED,
WHERE CAN THEY FIND YOU
AND THE CHURCH?
MICHAEL: YES.
REBECCA: WHAT'S THE WEBSITE?
MICHAEL: UPPERROOM.CO, I BELIEVE.
I BELIEVE IT'S UPPERROOM.CO.
IF NOT, JUST GOOGLE UPPERROOM, PUT ONE WORD,
AND IT'LL POP UP.
YOU CAN FIND ALL OUR RESOURCES THERE.
REBECCA: YEAH, WE'LL JUST PUT IT IN THE GRAPHIC,
WE'LL FIGURE THAT OUT.
AND FOR THE BOOK, WHERE CAN YOU GET IT?
MICHAEL: THE BOOK IS ANYWHERE YOU CAN GET A BOOK.
I THINK AMAZON, IT'S HIS HOUSE, HIS PRESENCE.
SO I HOPE YOU ENJOY IT.
REBECCA: AWESOME.
WELL, MICHAEL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
MICHAEL: THANK YOU, REBECCA.
WHAT A BLAST.
REBECCA: AND THANK YOU FOR WATCHING
THE REBECCA WEISS PODCAST.