REBECCA LAMB WEISS: HEY, GUYS.
WELCOME BACK TO THE REBECCA WEISS PODCAST .
I AM SUPER EXCITED ABOUT OUR GUEST TODAY
BECAUSE SHE IS A VERY CALMING PRESENCE
AND SHE'S A WELL OF WISDOM.
AND SHE'S GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT HER NEW BOOK,
THE NIGHT IS NORMAL .
PLEASE WELCOME TO THE SHOW, DR. ABC,
AS WE CAN CALL YOU.
OR DR. ALICIA BRITT CHOLE.
DR. ALICIA BRITT CHOLE: YOU GOT IT.
REBECCA: I DID IT!
DR. CHOLE: IT'S SO GOOD TO BE HERE.
THANKS FOR THE OPPORTUNITY.
REBECCA: I JUST HEARD YOU TALKING,
AND I THOUGHT TO MYSELF, I HAVE GOT TO HAVE HER ON.
SO I WANT TO JUMP INTO THE NIGHT IS NORMAL .
BUT I WANT TO TAP ON A LITTLE BIT,
BECAUSE I HEARD JUST A QUICK STORY ABOUT YOUR TESTIMONY.
DR. CHOLE: YES, YES.
I WAS A VERY SINCERE AND CERTAIN ATHEIST,
ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED THAT THERE WAS NO GOD.
IT WASN'T CHURCH HURT, IT WAS JUST I LEAN PHILOSOPHICAL,
I'VE ASKED A LOT OF QUESTIONS,
AND THERE WERE A LOT OF QUESTIONS THAT HAD NO ANSWERS,
AND SO I FIGURED WHAT HAPPENED IS THAT
PEOPLE WOULD CREATE GOD, AND GOD'S TO STUFF IN THE GAPS
THAT THOSE ANSWERS WEREN'T AVAILABLE FOR.
AND SO I JUST CONSIDERED MYSELF A REALIST
WHO PREFERRED UNANSWERED QUESTIONS OVER FAIRY TALES,
WAS HEADING INTO COLLEGE,
AND UNDER MY PROFESSION, AND JESUS DECIDED TO
INTERRUPT MY ATHEISTIC EXISTENCE WITH AN EXPERIENCE
THAT WAS SO INCREDIBLY TANGIBLE.
I WOULD HAVE HAD TO COMMIT INTELLECTUAL
AND EMOTIONAL SUICIDE TO DENY GOD'S REALITY
AFTER THAT ENCOUNTER.
REBECCA: AND WHAT HAPPENED IN THAT ENCOUNTER?
DR. CHOLE: OH, IT WAS LIKE THE WATERS OPENED UP ABOVE ME.
AND I NEED TO EMPHASIZE, I WASN'T DRUNK,
I WASN'T HIGH, I WASN'T IN THE PIT OF DESPAIR.
LIFE WAS GOOD.
BUT GOD OPENED UP THE HEAVENS OVER ME.
AND IT FELT LIKE THESE WATERS WERE JUST WASHING
THROUGH ME.
I WAS ALL OF A SUDDEN IN A PRESENCE.
AND I HAD STUDIED DIFFERENT WORLD RELIGIONS
TO GIVE EVERYBODY EQUAL TIME AND DEBATE.
AND SO I KNEW THAT SOMETHING SUPERNATURAL
AND SOMETHING SPIRITUAL WAS HAPPENING,
AND ON AN INTELLECTUAL LEVEL,
I WOULD HAVE BEEN OPEN TO ANY NAME, ANY RELIGION.
BUT IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT HOUR-AND-A-HALF ENCOUNTER,
I KNEW, I KNEW BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT
THAT WHO WAS INITIATING THIS, HIS NAME WAS JESUS.
REBECCA: AND THAT ENCOUNTER HAPPENED AT A CHURCH.
AND IT WASN'T A VERY FLASHY SPECTACLE.
DR. CHOLE: OH, NO.
IT WAS A, I MEAN THIS WITH THE UTMOST RESPECT,
IT WAS A PITIFUL CHURCH.
[ LAUGHING ]
IT WAS BROKEN DOWN, THERE WAS NOTHING OF EXCELLENCE,
THE ORGAN WAS OUT OF TUNE.
I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THAT WAS POSSIBLE.
IT WAS FILLED WITH MAYBE TWO DOZEN BROKENHEARTED SENIOR
SAINTS THAT OUR CHURCH HAD EXPERIENCED A HORRIBLE SPLIT
THAT I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT.
IT WAS THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS BEFORE THE DOORS CLOSED.
AND SO THESE BROKENHEARTED SAINTS STOOD UP
AND BEGAN TO SING.
AND THE ATHEIST IN THE BACK ROW ENCOUNTERED JESUS.
REBECCA: I JUST LOVE THAT,
BECAUSE EVEN IN THEIR BROKENNESS AND THEIR HUMILITY,
THEY SANG A PRAISE TO GOD.
AND IT WAS ABLE TO TOUCH YOUR LIFE,
WHICH IS IN TURN, GOD IS USED TO TOUCH SO MANY LIVES.
DR. CHOLE: WOW.
AND PAIN LIVED IN GOD'S PRESENCE IS MORE POWERFUL
THAN WE CAN EVER IMAGINE.
REBECCA: YEAH.
ONE OF THE THINGS YOU SAID WAS HOW YOU WERE CAPTIVATED
BY JESUS.
YOU OPENED UP THE BIBLE.
TALK ABOUT THAT.
DR. CHOLE: YES.
WELL, RIGHT AFTER THE ENCOUNTER,
THE PASTOR CAME UP TO ME AND HE SAID, WOW,
SOMETHING HAPPENED TO YOU.
BECAUSE I DIDN'T GO FORWARD,
I DIDN'T RAISE MY HAND, I DIDN'T SIGN A COMMITMENT CARD.
AND I SAID, YES, SIR, SOMETHING HAPPENED.
HE SAID, HOW DO YOU FEEL?
AND I SAID, I NEED A BIBLE.
CAN SOMEBODY PLEASE, I NEED A BIBLE.
AND SO AS SOON AS THE STORES OPENED ON MONDAY,
WE WENT AND WE BOUGHT A BIBLE.
IT WAS ACTUALLY VERY MUCH LIKE THIS ONE.
AND I OPENED IT UP.
I'VE ALWAYS LOVED WORDS, I'VE ALWAYS BEEN FASCINATED
WITH THEIR TEXTURE.
I LOVED RESEARCH, I LOVE STUDYING.
SO ALL OF A SUDDEN, HERE'S THE BIBLE,
AND IT IS NOT A BOOK, IT'S A VOICE.
I JUST HEARD THE VOICE OF THE ONE WHO LOVED ME
ENOUGH TO PURSUE ME, AND I COULD NOT GET ENOUGH OF HIS VOICE.
REBECCA: HOW DOES SOMEONE STAY,
BECAUSE YOU TALKED ABOUT WHEN YOU WENT THROUGH THAT PROCESS,
YOU WERE CAPTIVATED BY JESUS.
HOW DOES SOMEONE STAY CAPTIVATED BY JESUS?
DR. CHOLE: YES.
I THINK THAT WE NEED TO REALIZE THAT FAITH IS NOT A FEELING.
IT'S MORE LIKE A MUSCLE.
AND IT GROWS AS WE EXERCISE IT.
AND THE FACT IS, MUSCLES DON'T ALWAYS FEEL GOOD.
AND SO WE ARE CONTINUALLY CHOOSING TO GAZE AT JESUS.
AND THAT'S WHAT I STARTED TO DO THROUGHOUT THE GOSPELS,
JUST IN TINY LITTLE VERSES BY VERSES BY VERSE,
I WOULD JUST ALLOW IT TO DISSOLVE IN ME
LIKE A GREAT PIECE OF CHOCOLATE DISSOLVES IN YOUR MOUTH.
AND SO I STARTED REALIZING THAT BECAUSE THE WORD IS ALIVE,
I DON'T JUST READ IT, I RELATE TO IT.
I DEVELOP A RELATIONSHIP WITH IT.
IN THE NEXT FOUR-AND-A-HALF YEARS,
THAT'S REALLY WHAT I WAS DEVOTED TO,
WAS GROWING A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LIVING WORD OF GOD.
AND SO THE EXPERIENCE GAVE ME WINGS.
BUT THIS WORD GAVE ME ROOTS.
REBECCA: THAT'S SO GOOD.
FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE LISTENING,
HOW DOES SOMEONE PRACTICALLY DO THAT IN THEIR LIFE
WITH THE WORD?
BECAUSE MANY DON'T KNOW HOW TO STUDY IT.
DR. CHOLE: OH, ABSOLUTELY.
I WAS IN A VAN WITH SIX TWENTY-SOMETHING AMAZING LEADERS
AND INFLUENCERS, JUST A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO.
AND THEY ASKED ME WHAT MY GREATEST CONCERN WAS
FOR THEIR GENERATION, AND I TALKED ABOUT
THE RUTHLESSNESS OF A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE WORD
OF GOD, AND THEY SAID, ALICIA,
PEOPLE ALWAYS TOLD US TO READ, BUT WE GET SO BORED,
SO WE TURN ON THE PODCAST OR WE PUT ON ANOTHER SONG.
AND I SAID, HAS NO ONE TAUGHT YOU HOW TO GROW A RELATIONSHIP
WITH THE WORD?
AND THEY SAID, NOT THAT WE KNOW OF.
I SAID, LISTEN, WE'VE GOT 45 MINUTES IN THIS VAN
ON THE WAY TO THE AIRPORT, WOULD YOU LIKE TO LEARN?
AND SO THAT'S WHAT WE DID FOR THE NEXT 45 MINUTES.
AND WE JUST TOOK A TINY LITTLE PIECE AND I SAID,
OKAY, I WANT YOU TO JUST LET THIS, BUT HERE WE ARE,
JOHN CHAPTER 10, JESUS SAYS,
I TELL YOU THE TRUTH OF THE MAN WHO DOES NOT ENTER THE SHEEP PEN
BY THE GATE BUT CLIMBS IN BY SOME OTHER WAY
IS A THIEF.
LET'S JUST STOP THERE.
I SAID, I WANT YOU TO ROLL THAT OVER IN YOUR MIND OVER AND OVER.
REPEAT IT OVER AND OVER UNTIL YOU SEE IT,
UNTIL YOUR WEAR IT.
SO YOU EXPERIENCE IT.
AND SO THEY DID.
THEY JUST STARTED AND THEY WERE LIKE,
OH, MY GOODNESS, I'VE NEVER SEEN IT FROM THAT ANGLE,
I'VE NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT IT LIKE THAT.
AND I SAID, WHAT DO YOU LEARN ABOUT WHO GOD IS FROM THIS,
AND WHAT DO YOU LEARN ABOUT WHAT HE WANTS YOU TO DO?
AND WE MET JESUS IN THAT LITTLE VAN
NOT THROUGH READING CHAPTER UPON CHAPTER,
BUT ON TAKING THE LIVING WORD IN SMALL DOSES
AND LETTING IT DISSOLVE INSIDE OF US.
SO THE SLOW PRACTICE IS WHAT I DO.
IT'S TAKEN ME SEVEN YEARS.
I'M STILL IN LUKE CHAPTER 9.
THIS IS MY DAILY PRACTICE.
TINY LITTLE PIECES DISSOLVING INSIDE OF ME
AND ASKING MYSELF, WHAT AM I LEARNING ABOUT THIS JESUS?
REBECCA: IT MAKES ME THINK OF,
ISN'T THERE A VERSE THAT SAYS,
I TAKE YOUR WORDS AND I ATE THEM?
DR. CHOLE: THERE YOU GO.
THERE IT IS, YES.
REBECCA: AND IT'S WE HAVE TO -- BUT YOU HAVE TO DIGEST IT.
DR. CHOLE: YES.
REBECCA: YES.
DR. CHOLE: IT MAKES ME THINK ABOUT,
I THINK IN BIBLE SCHOOL, I HAD TO READ AN ARTICLE
ABOUT HOW A COW HAS MULTIPLE STOMACHS
AND IT'S JUST CONSTANTLY DIGESTING,
AND THAT'S JUST THE WAY THAT GOD DESIGNED THEM,
BUT LIKE THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING
WITH GOD'S WORD.
IT'S NOT JUST WE WANT THE QUICK, WE WANT THE FAST,
WE WANT THE EASY, BUT WE NEED TO TAKE IT, MEDITATE ON IT.
AND I THINK WE'RE LIVING IN A DAY AND AGE
WHERE OUR MINDS ARE EVEN BEING TRAINED FOR ONLY SHORT STINTS
BECAUSE WE'RE LIVING FOR DOPAMINE HITS
OFF OF SOCIAL MEDIA AND TINY VIDEOS AND THIS AND THAT.
BUT THIS IS AN ANCIENT TEXT.
DR. CHOLE: THAT'S RIGHT.
REBECCA: AND IT NEEDS TO BE DIGESTED,
IT NEEDS TO BE MEDITATED UPON.
AND MEDITATION FROM A CHRISTIAN WORLDVIEW
IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM MEDITATION FROM AN EASTERN
OR ANOTHER RELIGION.
MEDITATION FOR BELIEVERS IS, MEDITATING,
IS FILLING YOUR MIND WITH HIM.
OTHER MEDITATIONS, THAT ISN'T WHAT WE PRACTICE,
IS EMPTYING THE MIND.
WE FILL THE MIND.
DR. CHOLE: THAT'S RIGHT.
WE FOCUS THE MIND.
AND I THINK ALSO, IT'S GOOD FOR US TO REMEMBER
THAT WE USE THINGS THAT ARE DEAD AND WE RELATE TO THINGS
THAT ARE LIVING.
AND SO YOU AND I CAN USE THIS CHAIR,
BUT WE WOULD DARE NOT USE ONE ANOTHER.
AND I THINK WE HAVE TO ASK OURSELVES, HONESTLY,
WHEN IT COMES TO THE SCRIPTURES,
ARE WE USING IT OR ARE WE RELATING TO IT?
AND I THINK THAT ACTUALLY REVEALS
WHETHER OUR WORKING THEOLOGY THINKS THIS BOOK IS DEAD
OR ALIVE.
IT'S ALIVE.
WE GROW A RELATIONSHIP WITH IT.
JUST LIKE WE WOULD WITH ONE ANOTHER.
IT TAKES TIME, IT TAKES INTENTIONALITY,
AND IT TAKES PRACTICE AND PATIENCE.
REBECCA: AND DISCIPLINE.
DR. CHOLE: MM-HM.
REBECCA: AND, YEAH.
THAT'S JUST A DECISION YOU HAVE TO MAKE.
AND I THINK THERE'S SO MANY THINGS FIGHTING
FOR OUR ATTENTION IN THIS DAY AND AGE THAT ARE SHINY
AND INTERESTING, BUT AREN'T GOING TO LEAD TO ANYTHING
FRUITFUL.
BUT THIS WILL PRODUCE -- HELP PRODUCE FRUIT IN US.
DR. CHOLE: YES.
IT'LL PREPARE US.
IT'LL PREPARE US AND GIVE US THE MUSCLE WE NEED
TO GO THROUGH THE NIGHTS OF LIFE.
REBECCA: YEAH.
DR. CHOLE: BECAUSE WITHOUT THIS WORD,
WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A VERY,
VERY TOUGH TIME NAVIGATING THE NIGHT.
REBECCA: AND ACTUALLY, THAT'S THE PERFECT TRANSITION.
LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR NEW BOOK,
THE NIGHT IS NORMAL: NAVIGATING THE NIGHT.
I WANT YOU TO START WITH THE STORIES ABOUT
WATCHING THUNDERSTORMS WITH YOUR DAD.
DR. CHOLE: YES, YES.
SO MY MOM WAS AN AMAZING SOUL.
AND ONE OF THE VERY FEW THINGS THAT MY DAD DIDN'T
WANT ME TO INHERIT FROM HER WAS HER INCREDIBLE FEAR OF STORMS.
SHE WAS JUST PARALYZED BY STORMS.
AND SO EVERY TIME A STORM WOULD COME ROLLING IN,
THIS WAS ALWAYS AT NIGHT BECAUSE MY DAD WORKED DURING THE DAY,
AND MY DAD WOULD SAY, BABY,
LET'S GO OUT ON THE PORCH.
AND SO WHEN I WAS LITTLE, HE WOULD SCOOP ME UP IN HIS ARMS,
AND WHEN I GREW TOO BIG FOR SCOOPING,
HE WOULD JUST BRING ME OUT BY THE HAND,
AND MY DAD AND I WOULD SIT ON THOSE PORCHES,
AND WE WOULD WATCH THE STORMS COME IN,
AND WE WOULD FEEL THE WIND AND WE WOULD COUNT THE DISTANCE
BETWEEN THE THUNDER AND THE LIGHTNING.
AND FROM WHEN I WAS A TINY LITTLE GIRL,
I STARTED ASSOCIATING NIGHT STORMS
WITH AN OPPORTUNITY TO REST WITH MY DAD.
AND THAT ASSOCIATION HAS SERVED ME SO WELL AS A FOLLOWER
OF JESUS.
WHEN JESUS INTERRUPTED MY LIFE AND SOMEBODY CAME AND SAID,
OH, BY THE WAY, GOD IS NOW YOUR FATHER.
I'M LIKE, OH, FANTASTIC.
HE'S NOT AFRAID OF THE NIGHT.
FANTASTIC.
STORMS ARE INVITATIONS TO GET TO KNOW HIM,
TO REST WITH HIM.
MY DAD GAVE ME A GREAT GIFT IN HELPING ME
NOT BE AFRAID OF NIGHT STORMS.
THEY ARE SURVIVABLE IF WE VIEW THEM AS RELATIONAL.
REBECCA: THAT'S REALLY THE KEY,
IS GOING THROUGH THE NIGHT,
IS HAVING THAT RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM.
DR. CHOLE: YES.
IT IS WITH HIM.
WITH HIM IS WHERE THE POWER IS.
IT'S NOT IN THE HAPPY, IT'S NOT IN THE SAD.
FAITH IS NOT A SPIRITUALIZED FORM OF POSITIVE THINKING.
IT'S TIME WITH JESUS THAT MAKES FAITH RICH.
REBECCA: AND IT'S FAITH IS GOD REWARDING THOSE
WHO DILIGENTLY SEEK HIM.
I WAS JUST THINKING ABOUT THAT VERSE.
IT SAYS, TALKING ABOUT FAITH.
FAITH IS ABOUT SEEKING HIM HIM AND BELIEVING THAT
GOD IS WHO HE SAYS HE IS.
AND THE NIGHT REALLY IS A PLACE TO TRUST GOD.
DR. CHOLE: ABSOLUTELY.
BOTH: BECAUSE WE CAN'T SEE.
[ LAUGHING ]
DR. CHOLE: YOU CAN'T, YOU CAN'T SEE.
AND YOU CAN'T THINK YOUR YOUR WAY THROUGH IT,
YOU CAN'T CONNECT THE DOTS.
AND SO YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT
HE'S TRUSTWORTHY ENOUGH TO LEAN UPON HIM.
THIS CALLING THAT JESUS HAS FOR ALL OF US;
YOUNG, OLD, WHEREVER WE HAPPEN TO BE COMING FROM,
HE SAID THE EXACT SAME THING TO EVERYBODY
THROUGHOUT THE GOSPELS.
HE SAID, FOLLOW ME.
FOLLOW ME, WHICH MEANS HE'S THE LEADER.
WE POSITION OURSELVES AS THE FOLLOWER IN THE DAY
AND THROUGH THE NIGHT.
IT'S ABOUT PROXIMITY.
IT'S NOT EVEN ABOUT CERTAINTY THAT WE KNOW
WHERE WE'RE GOING AND WE CAN SEE CLEARLY
AND WE'VE GOT ALL THE ANSWERS.
NO, NO.
NO, FOLLOWING IS ABOUT TRUSTING THE LEADER AND STAYING CLOSE.
THAT'S WHERE WE PUT OUR ENERGY IN EVERY SEASON OF LIFE.
FOLLOW YOUR LEADER, STAY CLOSE, TRUST HIM.
AND WE'RE GOING TO FIND OUR WAY HOME.
REBECCA: TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE LISTENING,
DESCRIBE WHAT IS THE NIGHT AND HOW WE SEE IT IN SCRIPTURE.
DR. CHOLE: OH, MY GOODNESS, YES.
SO HISTORICALLY, THE PEOPLE WOULD TALK ABOUT
TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF NIGHT.
THEY WOULD TALK ABOUT THE NIGHT OF THE SOUL
AND THE NIGHT OF THE SENSES.
SO THE NIGHT OF THE SOUL IS WHEN THERE'S THINGS
THAT WE THOUGHT WE KNEW ABOUT GOD
THAT ALL OF A SUDDEN WE'RE JUST NOT SURE OF.
THE NIGHT OF THE SENSES, THAT WE USED TO FEEL GOD'S PRESENCE
AND NOW WE DON'T FEEL ANYTHING OR WE FEEL LOUSY.
AND SO WHEN WE LOOK FROM GENESIS TO REVELATION,
WE SEE PEOPLE GOING THROUGH THESE NIGHTS
WHERE WHAT THEY THOUGHT THEY KNEW,
THEY NOW KNOW LESS CLEARLY.
WHAT THEY FELT, THEY DON'T FEEL ANYMORE.
JOB, ECCLESIASTES, KING DAVID, OH, MY GOODNESS,
THE PSALMS ARE DRIPPING WITH NIGHT.
THE GOSPELS.
IN FACT, THIS IS HOW THIS ALL BEGAN FOR ME.
I BEGAN STUDYING EVERY OCCURRENCE OF SPIRITUAL PAIN
I COULD FIND, GENESIS TO REVELATION.
TOOK ME YEARS TO CHRONICLE EVERY ONE OF THEM.
AND I STARTED SEEING THAT THE NIGHT WAS NORMAL
IN THE LIFE OF FAITH.
AND NOT ONLY THAT, THE NIGHT IS NECESSARY
BECAUSE THERE'S TREASURE THERE, THERE'S GROWTH THERE.
WHAT THE NIGHT DOES IS PURIFY OUR LOVE FOR GOD.
AND WE EMERGE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF OUR NIGHT
WITH A MUSCULAR FAITH THAT HAS SOMETHING TO SAY TO PEOPLE
WHO KNOW A LOT ABOUT DARKNESS.
REBECCA: THAT'S SO POWERFUL.
THE NIGHT IS NORMAL.
DR. CHOLE: IT IS NORMAL.
REBECCA: THE NIGHT IS NECESSARY.
AND IF PEOPLE COULD UNDERSTAND THAT
GOING INTO THOSE NIGHT SEASONS, THEY WOULDN'T MAYBE PANIC.
DR. CHOLE: THAT'S RIGHT.
REBECCA: I WISH I COULD HAVE TOLD MYSELF THAT FIVE YEARS AGO.
I LEARNED IT THROUGH THE PROCESS OF GOING THROUGH A NIGHT SEASON
MYSELF.
BUT UNDERSTANDING THAT DON'T GET SO CAUGHT UP
WITH EVERYTHING THAT'S GOING ON BUT UNDERSTAND
THAT THIS IS FOR YOUR GOOD.
DR. CHOLE: YES.
AND WE SO HAVE CONFUSED EMOTION FOR DEVOTION
THAT WHEN WE HIT THOSE NIGHT SEASONS, WE'RE LIKE,
SHOOT, WHAT ON EARTH HAPPENED?
HOW DID I GET HERE, HOW DO I GET OUT?
WHAT DID I DO WRONG?
BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY I'D STAY IN THIS HAPPY SPACE.
NO.
THE NIGHT COMES.
THE NIGHT WAS ONE OF THE ORIGINAL RESIDENTS IN EDEN,
EVEN BEFORE SIN.
BEFORE PROBLEMS, BEFORE DRAMA, BEFORE TRAUMA.
THE NIGHT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS GOD LOOKED AT AND HE SAID,
OH, THIS IS GOOD.
THIS IS GOOD.
THIS IS HOW I'M GOING TO PATTERN MY DAYS FOR MY PEOPLE.
SO FROM THE VERY BEGINNING,
FOLLOWING GOD REQUIRED DAY FAITH AND NIGHT FAITH.
WE NEED BOTH.
REBECCA: TALK ABOUT DISILLUSIONMENT.
DR. CHOLE: MM-HM, YES.
SO DISILLUSIONMENT IS ONE OF MY VERY, VERY FAVORITE WORDS.
I HAD A WONDERFUL TIME IN MY DOCTORAL DISSERTATION STUDIES
JUST GETTING TO REALLY DISSECT IT.
WHAT THE WORD MEANS IS THE LOSING, THE NEGATION,
OF FALSE IDEAS AND IDEALS.
SO WHEN WE WALK THROUGH A TIME OF DISILLUSIONMENT,
THERE'S SOMETHING WE THOUGHT WE KNEW THAT WE REALIZED,
MM, THAT MAY NOT BE TRUE OR IT MAY NOT ALWAYS BE TRUE.
AND WE INITIALLY MAY SEE IT AS LOSS.
BUT THE FACT IS, EVERY TIME YOU LOSE AN ILLUSION,
YOU HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO GAIN A REALITY.
SO YEAH, JESUS IS NOT SANTA CLAUS.
WELCOME TO REALITY.
BUT HE IS GOOD.
AND HE IS WITH YOU.
AND THERE, HIS PRESENCE IS MORE PRECIOUS
THAN ANY ANSWER WE COULD EVER, EVER RECEIVE.
SO WE LOSE THESE ILLUSIONS ABOUT GOD.
WE LOSE THESE ILLUSIONS ABOUT OUR ABILITY TO FOLLOW HIM.
WE LOSE THESE ILLUSIONS ABOUT ONE ANOTHER.
AND WE GAIN THE KIND OF REALITY THAT YOU CAN
REALLY BUILD LOVE ON.
REBECCA: UGH, IT'S SO POWERFUL.
THERE'S SO MANY DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS I COULD TAKE IT.
BUT THINKING ABOUT DISILLUSIONMENTS WITH OTHERS,
THAT CAN BE VERY DISAPPOINTING.
DR. CHOLE: OH, MY WORD, YES.
REBECCA: ESPECIALLY IF YOU LOOK UP TO SOMEONE.
DR. CHOLE: YES.
REBECCA: BUT IT MIGHT ACTUALLY BE A GIFT.
DR. CHOLE: YES, TO BE HUMAN --
YES.
WE WALK ALONGSIDE --
REBECCA: -- AND NOT MAKE THEM YOUR SOURCE.
DR. CHOLE: THAT'S RIGHT, THAT'S RIGHT.
THEY'RE JUST A FELLOW PERSON WALKING ALONGSIDE,
JUST AS HUMAN AS WE ARE.
JESUS DIED FOR THEM JUST AS MUCH AS HE DID FOR US.
AS I WAS SAYING A LITTLE WHILE AGO
THAT BEING WOUNDED IN THE FAMILY OF GOD IS A GIVEN.
WE ARE HUMANS.
WE ARE BROKEN PEOPLE WALKING TOGETHER,
BEING WOUNDED IS A GIVEN.
BUT BEING INFECTED IS A CHOICE.
AND THAT'S WHERE THE WORK IS.
WE KEEP TRYING TO PUT OUR ENERGY INTO AVOIDING WOUNDS,
WHICH IS WHY PEOPLE KEEP BAILING ON CHURCH
AND BAILING ON EACH OTHER
AND DECIDING THEY DON'T WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE CHURCH,
THEY'RE JUST INTO JESUS.
BUT CHRISTIANITY IS NOT OFFERED FOR INDEPENDENT STUDY.
IT'S JUST NOT ONE OF THE OPTIONS THAT'S GIVEN.
AND SO BEING WOUNDED IS A GIVEN.
BUT BEING INFECTED, THAT'S WHERE WE PUT OUR ENERGY,
THAT WE ARE GOING TO RESIST INFECTION.
REBECCA: AND WHAT'S SO POWERFUL ABOUT THAT IS
WHEN WE FACE DISILLUSIONMENTS
FOR PEOPLE IN OUR LIVES, IT'S OUR CHOICE.
LIKE YOU SAID, IT'S CHOICE TO BE INFECTED,
IT'S OUR CHOICE TO BE OFFENDED BY IT
OR DISAPPOINTED BY THAT AND STAY IN THAT NEGATIVE SPACE.
I GUESS YOU GIVE THE DISILLUSIONMENTS TO GOD.
DR. CHOLE: YES.
AND HONESTY.
HONESTY IS A FRIEND OF INTIMACY WITH GOD.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO STUFF YOUR QUESTIONS.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO SPEND YOUR DOUBTS.
DOUBT DOESN'T THIN GOD.
PRAISE DOESN'T THICKEN HIM.
HE'S INFINITE.
HE'S INFINITELY PRESENT IN EVERY SINGLE MOMENT.
AND SO WHAT WE BRING TO THE TABLE IS HONESTY.
GOD, THIS STINKS.
THIS HURTS.
I'M NOT SURE HOW TO RECOVER FROM THIS.
AND I KNOW YOU'RE WITH ME.
IT'S OUR HONESTY THAT LEADS TO GREATER INTIMACY.
SO WHATEVER THE NIGHT IS, WHATEVER ITS SOURCE IS,
IF WE CAN FIND THE COURAGE TO BE HONEST ABOUT IT
AND FACE JESUS LIKE MARY AND MARTHA DID,
IF YOU HAD BEEN HERE, MY BROTHER WOULDN'T HAVE DIED.
HELLO, WHERE WERE YOU?
THEY FACED JESUS WITH THEIR QUESTIONS,
WITH THEIR PAIN, WITH THEIR NIGHT.
AND HE HAD TEARS ROLLING DOWN HIS CHEEKS
AND WENT WITH THEM TO THE GRAVE.
REBECCA: YEAH.
DR. CHOLE: AND SO THAT'S OUR JESUS.
OUR HONESTY IS THE KEY TO THE NEXT STEP OF INTIMACY WITH HIM.
AND THE NIGHT IS A REALLY GREAT OPPORTUNITY
TO GET REALLY HONEST.
REBECCA: WHAT'S SO INTERESTING IS,
I'M CURRENTLY IN THIS SEASON OF ACTUALLY WALKING THIS OUT
WITH THE LORD.
I WAS JUST SEEING THINGS COME UP IN ME
AND I REMEMBER HIM TELLING ME, ALLOW ME TO HEAL YOU.
STOP TRYING TO FIX IT YOURSELF,
STOP TRYING TO GO OUT TO FIND SOMEONE,
NOT THAT I DON'T BELIEVE IN WORKING WITH SOMEONE,
I TOTALLY BELIEVE IN WORKING WITH COUNSELORS,
GOOD BELIEVING COUNSELORS.
BUT, HE SAID, ALLOW ME TO HEAL YOU.
AND WHEN STUFF BEGAN TO POP UP IN ME,
WHETHER IT WAS ANXIETY OR ANGER OR HURT,
I JUST STARTED GETTING REALLY HONEST WITH GOD IMMEDIATELY.
I IMMEDIATELY STARTED PRAYING.
I WASN'T CONTEMPLATING ON WHAT I WAS FEELING.
I STARTED TALKING OUT TO GOD.
AND I WOULD, FOR EXAMPLE, SOMEONE WAS REALLY BAD TO ME,
AND I WAS JUST SO HONEST,
THE STUFF THAT WE'RE TOLD MAYBE NOT TO EVEN FEEL,
AND I SAID, I HATE THIS PERSON.
WHICH I HATE SAYING THAT OUT LOUD,
BUT I WAS JUST HONEST.
THE MOMENT I BEGAN TO BE HONEST WITH HIM,
IN ANY OF THESE SITUATIONS,
I WOULD FEEL AS THE NEGATIVE WOULD FLOW OUT LIKE A RIVER,
I'D FEEL HIS PRESENCE FLOW IN.
AND SOMETIMES HE WOULD GIVE ME UNDERSTANDING,
HE WOULD SPEAK TO ME ABOUT THE SITUATION.
SOMETIMES I WOULD JUST FEEL HIS PRESENCE,
BUT THAT WOULD ALL GO.
AND IT'S BEEN SO POWERFUL TO SEE THAT,
LIKE THE PSALMS, WHEN WE'RE HONEST WITH GOD
ABOUT WHAT WE'RE FEELING AND WE DON'T TRY TO SUGARCOAT IT,
WE DON'T TRY TO SELF-CORRECT,
THERE CAN BE TRUE HEALING THAT TAKES PLACE.
DR. CHOLE: YES.
WELL, ONE OTHER THING THAT'S HAPPENING
WHEN WE'RE HONEST AND WE'RE BUILDING TRUST.
ANOTHER AMAZING THING THAT MY DAD DID WITH ME,
HE WOULD ASK ME IF I HAD ANY QUESTIONS.
EVER SINCE I WAS LITTLE.
HE WOULD SAY, WHAT'S THE DAUGHTER THINKING?
I'M THE ONLY CHILD, BUT HE CALLS ME THE DAUGHTER.
WHAT'S THE DAUGHTER THINKING?
OH, MY GOODNESS, I WOULD TELL HIM EVERYTHING.
ALL OF MY ANGST, ALL OF MY QUESTIONS,
ALL OF MY CONCERNS, ALL THE THINGS I WAS JUST FIERY ABOUT.
WE WOULD PROCESS QUESTIONS TO THE WEE HOURS OF THE MORNING.
I DON'T REMEMBER ONE ANSWER.
BUT I REMEMBER THE SAFETY OF ASKING.
I REMEMBER THE SAFETY OF TELLING THE TRUTH.
AND THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO IN THE NIGHT.
WE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE HONEST AND TO DISCOVER
THAT HE DOESN'T PULL BACK FROM HONESTY, HE PRESSES IN.
HONESTY IS A KEY.
IT BUILDS TRUST AND IT ACTUALLY BUILDS HOPE.
REBECCA: FOR ME PERSONALLY,
I THINK QUESTIONING GOD AND DOUBTING IS SOMETHING
I GET WORRIED ABOUT, BUT THAT'S OKAY.
IT'S NOT GOING TO OFFEND GOD.
DR. CHOLE: JOHN THE BAPTIST,
HE PROCLAIMED THAT JESUS WAS THE LAMB OF GOD
IN THE COOL WATERS OF THE JORDAN, THEN HE WAS ARRESTED.
AND WHAT DID HE DO RIGHT IN THAT HORRIBLE PRISON,
THAT HORRIBLE LIGHTLESS PRISON?
HE SENT HIS DISCIPLES TO ASK JESUS A QUESTION.
HE SAID, HEY, ARE YOU THE ONE I WAS WAITING FOR
OR SHOULD I WAIT FOR SOMEBODY ELSE?
HE QUESTIONED THE IDENTITY OF JESUS.
AND IT WAS AFTER THAT THAT JESUS SAID HE WAS
THE GREATEST BORN AMONG WOMEN.
HE DIDN'T WITHDRAW.
HE SAID THIS, THIS IS A MAN.
THIS IS A MAN OF GOD.
HE EXPRESSED HIMSELF HONESTLY AND HE FACED JESUS
WITH THE PAIN.
AND THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO DO.
WHAT HAPPENS IS, EVEN IF WE CAN GET HONEST,
WE TURN OUR BACKS TOWARD GOD AND WE FACE SOMEWHERE ELSE
WITH THE PAIN.
BUT IF WE CAN DEVELOP THE HABIT OF, THIS HURTS,
THIS IS WHAT IS HURTING, AND I'M SENDING MY QUESTIONS
STRAIGHT TO YOU, JESUS.
ARE YOU THE ONE I WAS WAITING FOR OR IS THERE SOMEBODY ELSE
I SHOULD WAIT FOR?
AND WE WAIT FOR JESUS' RESPONSE.
HE OPENS HIS HEART.
HE OPENS HIS ARMS TO RECEIVE THE HONEST,
TO RECEIVE THOSE WITH THAT CHILDLIKE FAITH, THAT SAY,
THIS IS WHAT I SEE AND THIS IS THE WAY IT IS,
AND I'M BRINGING IT STRAIGHT TO YOU.
REBECCA: THAT'S SO GOOD.
I WANT TO TALK ABOUT DISILLUSIONMENT WITH GOD.
WHEN I WAS THINKING ABOUT THE NIGHT,
DISILLUSIONMENT WITH GOD, THE SCRIPTURE THAT CAME TO ME
WAS GENESIS 15 WITH ABRAHAM.
AND IT SAYS, AFTER THESE THINGS,
THE WORD OF THE LORD CAME TO ABRAHAM IN A VISION:
FEAR NOT, ABRAHAM, I AM YOUR SHIELD,
YOUR REWARD SHALL BE VERY GREAT.
BUT ABRAHAM SAID, O LORD GOD,
WHAT WILL YOU GIVE ME, FOR I CONTINUE CHILDLESS,
AND THE HEIR OF MY HOUSE IS ELEAZAR OF DAMASCUS.
AND ABRAHAM SAID -- AND ABRAM SAID, BEHOLD,
YOU HAVE GIVEN ME NO OFFSPRING AND A MEMBER OF MY HOUSEHOLD
WILL BE MY HEIR.
AND BEHOLD, THE WORD OF THE LORD CAME TO HIM.
THIS MAN SHALL NOT BE YOUR HEIR.
YOUR VERY OWN SON SHALL BE YOUR HEIR.
AND HE BROUGHT HIM OUTSIDE AND SAID,
LOOK TOWARD HEAVEN AND NUMBER THE STARS
IF YOU'RE ABLE TO NUMBER THEM.
THEN HE SAID TO HIM, SO SHALL YOUR OFFSPRING BE.
AND HE BELIEVED THE LORD, AND THE LORD COUNTED TO HIM
AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
AND THAT GOES BACK TO FAITH.
BUT IT'S SUCH A POWERFUL SCRIPTURE BECAUSE ABRAHAM,
AND AT THIS POINT, I CALL HIM ABRAHAM,
IT'S ACTUALLY ABRAM -- GOD HASN'T CHANGED HIS NAME YET --
BUT HE PROMISES HIM AN HEIR,
AND HERE HE IS IN HIS OLD AGE UNABLE, HIM AND SARAH,
TO HAVE CHILDREN, PAST THE ABILITY TO HAVE CHILDREN.
AND HE'S HONEST WITH GOD AND HE'S SAYING, GOD,
WHAT AM I GOING TO DO?
AND GOD TAKES HIM OUT IN THE NIGHT TO LOOK AT THE STARS
AND SAYS, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE AS MANY OFFPSRING AS THE STARS,
IF YOU CAN EVEN COUNT IT.
AND WHAT GOD DOES IS SO MUCH BIGGER THAN EVEN OUR MINDS
CAN HUMANLY UNDERSTAND.
BUT THAT IT'S OKAY, HE QUESTIONED THE LORD
AND BROUGHT HIM HIS WORRIES AND GOD SHOWED HIM THE PROMISE.
BUT ABRAHAM HAD TO BELIEVE IN THE NIGHT.
DR. CHOLE: YES, ABSOLUTELY.
THAT BEAUTIFUL COMBINATION EXPRESSING HONESTLY
WHAT'S INSIDE MY HEART, AND I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE
THAT YOU WERE GOOD.
THERE IT IS.
THAT'S THE DUET WE'VE GOT TO SING IN THE NIGHT.
HONESTY AND TRUST.
REBECCA: YOU'VE HAD YOUR FAIR SHARE OF NIGHT SEASONS.
AND ONE THAT'S BEEN VERY DIFFICULT FOR YOU
HAS BEEN GOING THROUGH CANCER.
CAN YOU TALK ABOUT YOUR OWN DISILLUSIONMENTS
THROUGH THAT NIGHT SEASON?
DR. CHOLE: SURE.
WELL, IT WAS AROUND TEN YEARS AGO
WHEN A SCAN REVEALED BREAST CANCER.
IT WAS THANKFULLY ONLY STAGE I.
IT HAD DEFINITELY JOLTED OUR FAMILY.
NO HISTORY, NO EXPECTATIONS.
WHEN I WALKED INTO THAT SCAN,
I HAD NO FEAR WHATSOEVER.
AND SO THERE WAS AN INITIAL PROCEDURE THAT WE DID.
AND EVERYTHING WAS LOOKING GOOD,
THE BLOODWORK WAS LOOKING GOOD.
AND SO FIVE YEARS LATER, AFTER EVERY SIX-MONTH SCANS AND TESTS,
WE WERE GOING IN FOR OUR CELEBRATION LAP.
AND THIS IS THE FIVE-YEAR ALL CLEAR
THAT ALL CANCER PATIENTS WAIT FOR.
AND WE WERE SO EXCITED TO CALL THE FAMILY AND SAY,
HEY, THERE IT IS.
EVERYTHING WAS CLEAR.
AND THE RADIOLOGIST CAME IN AND SAID,
I AM SO SORRY.
I KNOW THIS IS YOUR FIFTH YEAR OF CELEBRATION.
BUT THERE'S MORE CANCER.
IT'S RETURNED.
AND IT WAS INTERESTING BECAUSE THE GUT PUNCH THAT WE FELT
WHEN CANCER MOVED FROM BEING THIS HORRIBLE ONE-TIME VISITOR
THAT YOU'RE GLAD LEFT
TO ALMOST FEELING MORE LIKE A STALKER
AND HOW THAT HAS SHAPED MY CHILDREN,
HOW IT HAS SHAPED OUR FAMILY.
AND GOD IS GOOD.
GOD IS NEAR.
AND THERE HAVE BEEN PEOPLE THAT WE HAVE MET THROUGH THIS PROCESS
AND BEEN ABLE TO SHARE HIS LOVE WITH
THAT I WOULD HAVE HAD NO REASON WHATSOEVER
TO EVEN BRUSH SHOULDERS WITH.
HE NEVER WASTES THE NIGHT.
AND SO WE LIVE IT STARING INTO HIS EYES AND BEING CLOSE.
AND ALSO BEING AWARE OF WHO PAIN PLACES US IN PROXIMITY TO.
THEIR SOULS ARE WORTH OUR NIGHTS.
REBECCA: WHILE THE DARK MAY PROMPT US TO PRAY FOR RELIEF,
HEALING, AND RESTORATION AND DELIVERANCE,
WE MUST BE CAREFUL NOT TO HOPE IN THEM,
BUT INSTEAD IN THE GOD WHO IS ABLE TO KEEP US,
EVEN IF ALLEVIATION FOR OUR DISILLUSIONMENT DOESN'T COME.
DR. CHOLE: MM-HM.
REBECCA: AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS I'M LEARNING IS,
NOT TO PRAY AND FOCUS ONLY ON OUTCOMES
AND THE CHANGING OF THE SITUATIONS WE'RE IN,
THE NIGHT SEASONS WE'RE IN,
BUT CONSISTENTLY KEEPING RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM
IS THE GOAL.
HIS PRESENCE IS THE GOAL.
AND I THINK WHEN WE'RE GOING THROUGH SOMETHING DIFFICULT,
THE NORMAL REACTION IS TO WANT IT TO GO AWAY
OR YOU WANT TO RUN.
SO HOW DOES SOMEONE CONTEND IN THE NIGHT?
DR. CHOLE: MM-HM, YES.
WE KEEP WANTING GARDEN OF EDEN CHRISTIANITY
IN A GARDEN OF GETHSEMANE AGE.
THE FALL AFFECTS US ALL.
AND SO IN SOME SENSE WE HAVE TO NORMALIZE THAT NIGHT.
EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US IS WALKING THROUGH SOMETHING,
EVERY PERSON YOU WALK BY IS WALKING IN THE MIDST
OF SOMETHING.
SO HOW DO WE CONTEND?
WE GO BACK TO OUR CALL.
WE FOLLOW HIM.
WHICH MEANS WE NEED TO STARE AT HIM, GAZE AT HIM,
INTENTIONALLY KEEP CLOSE TO HIM IN HIS WORD,
WITH HIS PAINFUL PEOPLE.
IN THE DAY AND IN THE NIGHT.
HOW YOU ARE GOING TO CONTEND IS THE SAME WAY HE CALLED YOU.
BE WITH HIM.
CHOOSE TO BE WITH HIM.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO FEEL GREAT.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO FEEL ANYTHING.
BUT BY FAITH, YOU SAY, I KNOW THAT YOU'RE WITH ME
IN THIS FALLEN WORLD.
I KNOW THAT YOU ARE NEAR.
AND WE KEEP LEARNING HIM, STARING AT HIM,
IN HIS LIVING WORD.
AND IT WILL BE ENOUGH.
BUT WHAT HAPPENS IS SATAN COMES,
AND HE INCITES US TO BAIL RIGHT ON THE EDGE
OF SOME OF THE GREATEST GROWTH CURVES WE WOULD EVER KNOW.
HE SAYS, OH, YOU'RE FEELING THIS,
YOU MUST HAVE DONE SOMETHING WRONG.
JUST LIKE JOB'S COMFORTERS.
OH, WOW, ARE YOU IN A MESS.
WHAT SECRET SIN DID YOU DO IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DARK?
JOB, WHAT WAY DID YOU GO WRONG?
BECAUSE THIS SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN TO ANYBODY.
BUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN JOB'S LIFE WAS INITIATED
IN SPIRITUAL REALMS WAY BEYOND HIS UNDERSTANDING.
HIS RESPONSIBILITY WAS TO KEEP BEING TRUTHFUL ABOUT GOD
AND BEING TRUTHFUL TO HIMSELF
IN THE MIDDLE OF HIS VERY, VERY LONG NIGHT.
REBECCA: YOU WENT THROUGH THE ADOPTION PROCESS
AND YOU WRITE ABOUT IN YOUR BOOK
HOW THAT WAS DIFFICULT BECAUSE YOU WOULD RECEIVE THE CHILD,
BUT THERE WASN'T A GUARANTEE,
AND THOSE SO MANY WEEKS THAT THE CHILD WAS YOURS.
CAN YOU SPEAK TO THAT?
DR. CHOLE: YES.
THERE IS A SAFETY THAT IS PUT IN PLACE IN MOST STATES
WHERE WHEN A VERY BRAVE BIRTH MOTHER DECIDES
THAT SHE IS NOT ABLE TO RAISE HER CHILD
AND SHE PLACES THAT BABY IN THE ARMS OF SOMEONE ELSE.
THERE IS A WINDOW AFTER THE BIRTH
IN WHICH THEY CAN CHANGE THEIR MIND FOR ALMOST ANY REASON.
AND IT'S TO PROTECT THEM.
IT'S TO MAKE SURE THAT THEIR DECISION WASN'T JUST
EMOTIONALLY MOTIVATED.
IT'S TO GIVE THEM SOME TIME.
AND SO YOU RECEIVE THE BABY.
AND YOU ARE CARRYING THE BABY, LOVING THE BABY,
YOU'VE GOT THE NURSERY, YOU'RE DOING EVERYTHING.
AND THERE IS THIS QUESTION MARK OVER THE PERMANENCE
OF THAT STATE, AND MANY, MANY PEOPLE THAT I'VE WALKED WITH
HAVE, WHETHER IN FOSTER SITUATIONS
OR IN PRIVATE ADOPTIONS, THEY'VE GONE THROUGH TIMES
WHERE WHAT THEY HOPED WOULD BE PERMANENT
WOUND UP BEING TEMPORARY.
AND I REMEMBER IN THE MIDDLE
OF AN ESPECIALLY DIFFICULT SITUATION, I WAS LIKE, LORD,
ALL I WANT TO DO IS PROTECT.
I WANT TO PROTECT MYSELF.
I ALMOST WANT TO WITHHOLD MY LOVE
BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO HURT SO BAD.
AND THE LORD SAID, OH, DO NOT WITHHOLD,
DO NOT SELF-PROTECT.
LOVE 150%, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT I DO WITH YOU.
I CHOOSE TO LOVE YOU WITH ALL THAT I AM,
AND THERE'S NO GUARANTEES YOU'LL SAY YES TO FOLLOW ME.
THERE'S NO GUARANTEES YOU'LL SAY YES TO LOVE ME.
THERE'S NO GUARANTEE THAT YOU WILL STAY.
REBECCA: OOH.
DR. CHOLE: SO FOLLOW MY EXAMPLE AND LOVE
WITH EVERYTHING THAT YOU'VE GOT.
AND SO I CHOSE.
I REFUSE TO SPEND MY ENERGY PROTECTING MYSELF.
I'M GOING TO SPEND MY ENERGY LOVING EVERYTHING THAT I HAVE.
BECAUSE EVEN IF THIS CHILD DOES NOT WIND UP
BEING MY FOREVER CHILD, HE OR SHE WILL BENEFIT
FROM HAVING BEEN LOVED 150%.
LOVE IS A RISKY THING, BUT IT'S WORTH IT.
REBECCA: IT MAKES ME THINK ABOUT THAT -- WAIT,
HOLD ON, THAT GOT ME.
I KNEW I WAS GOING TO CRY --
[ LAUGHING ]
-- WHEN I WAS PREPARING FOR THIS INTERVIEW.
BECAUSE THIS IS SO REAL.
[ SNIFFS ]
AND I THINK IF YOU FOLLOW GOD,
YOU'RE GOING TO EXPERIENCE SOME REAL EMOTION.
BUT IT IS WORTH IT.
AND LOVE NEVER FAILS.
I THINK THAT'S WILD JUST SITTING THERE THINKING
ABOUT HOW GOD ALLOWED YOU TO EXPERIENCE
I THINK WHAT HE HAS TO EXPERIENCE WITH US.
BECAUSE NOT ALL SAY YES TO HIM.
AND SO HE DOESN'T GET TO KEEP ALL,
EVEN THOUGH HE WOULD WANT ALL OF US.
AND YET HE LOVED US ANYWAY.
HE DIED FOR US ANYWAY.
NOT WITH THEIR BEING A GUARANTEE OF.
BUT, AH, THAT'S REALLY POWERFUL.
I THINK THE TEMPTATION IS TO CLOSE OFF YOUR HEART.
AND YOU HAVE TO MAKE A DECISION ON IT, TOO.
DR. CHOLE: YES, YES.
AND IN THE PROCESS OF SKIN CARE,
THERE'S THIS PROCESS OF EXFOLIATION WHERE WE TAKE OFF
THE OLD LAYERS SO THAT THINGS CAN BE HEALTHIER.
AND SELF-PROTECTION IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS
THAT PAIN EXFOLIATES FROM US.
IT GIVES US THE OPPORTUNITY.
IT REMOVES THE PAIN, GIVES US THE OPPORTUNITY TO SAY,
I REFUSE TO SELF-PROTECT.
I WOULD RATHER BE VULNERABLE AND WOUNDED IN YOUR PRESENCE
THAN SELF-PROTECT AND HARDEN MY HEART
IN A COLD PLACE.
I CHOOSE THE PAIN AND THE RISK OF VULNERABILITY.
REBECCA: YEAH.
DR. CHOLE: BECAUSE YOU'RE SAFER AND YOU'RE MORE BEAUTIFUL
AND YOU'RE MORE PRECIOUS AND YOU'RE MORE HOLY
AND YOU'RE MORE LOVING THAN ANYTHING ON THIS EARTH
I COULD POSSIBLY IMAGINE.
WE TAKE THAT POSTURE OF VULNERABILITY AND WHAT WE FIND
IS IT CARRIES US MORE DEEPLY INTO LOVE
THAT WE COULD HAVE EVER IMAGINED.
REBECCA: BECAUSE THE TEMPTATION IS TO PULL AWAY FROM GOD
IN THE NIGHT SEASONS.
BUT IT'S ALWAYS WORTH IT WITH HIM TO BE VULNERABLE WITH HIM.
AND WITH THE PEOPLE IN OUR LIVES, WE CAN,
YOU TALK ABOUT THIS.
YOU SAID, YOU CAN ALWAYS LOVE,
BUT THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN YOU TRUST.
SO SPEAK TO THAT.
DR. CHOLE: YES, YES.
WE ARE PLAGUED IN OUR CULTURE IN INTERACTING WITH ONE ANOTHER,
WE'RE TOLD, OH, IF YOU LOVE ME, YOU'LL TRUST ME.
WELL, THAT'S ABSURD.
I'M SORRY.
I CAN LOVE A RELATIVE THAT I DON'T TRUST.
I CAN TRUST A SURGEON THAT I DON'T LOVE.
THESE THINGS ARE NOT SYNONYMOUS.
TRUST IS SOMETHING THAT'S EARNED.
AND SO GOD IS WORTHY OF BOTH.
THE REST OF US ARE IN PROCESS.
REBECCA: YEAH.
DR. CHOLE: AND SO HE IS ONE WE CAN LOVE AND WE CAN TRUST.
THAT DOES NOT MEAN WE'LL ALWAYS UNDERSTAND.
AND THERE'S A BEAUTIFUL LITTLE QUOTE AND SHE SAYS,
LORD, I DON'T UNDERSTAND YOU, BUT I TRUST YOU.
WELL, THERE YOU GO, THERE'S FAITH.
THERE'S FAITH IN THE NIGHT.
AND THAT'S THE KIND OF FAITH THAT SHAKES GENERATIONS
AND SHAPES LEGACIES.
OUR LIVES ARE GOING TO BE FORGED MORE BY WHAT WE DO WITH PAIN
THAN BY WHAT WE DO WITH JOY.
REBECCA: YEAH, IT'S TRUE.
DR. CHOLE: AND SO IN THE NIGHT,
THAT'S WHERE WE LEARN HOW TO STEWARD THE PAIN.
REBECCA: SO WE CAN'T RUN FROM THE NIGHT SEASONS.
BECAUSE YOU CAN'T RUN FROM THEM REGARDLESS.
DR. CHOLE: NO, NO.
YOU CAN'T.
IT WOULD BE RIDICULOUS, WOULDN'T IT,
IF THE SUN GOES DOWN AND THE MOON COMES UP AND WE'RE,
OH, NO, I'M GOING TO OUTRUN THIS.
NO, YOU'RE NOT.
[ LAUGHING ]
NO, YOU'RE NOT.
BUT YOU CAN BE ATTENTIVE.
YOU CAN BE ATTENTIVE.
YOU CAN BE OBEDIENT.
YOU CAN WORK ON KEEPING YOUR WOUNDS UNINFECTED.
AND YOU CAN TRUST THAT HE WASTES NOTHING.
HE WILL WASTE NOTHING.
THERE IS NOT ONE ATOM OF PAIN IN YOUR LIFE
THAT HE IS GOING TO WASTE.
SO WHEN HE TALKS ABOUT FELLOWSHIPPING WITH HIM
IN HIS SUFFERINGS, WE KEPT HOPING THAT WAS POETRY.
WE KEPT HOPING THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT WE COULD
JUST PUT ON THE WALL AND SAY, OH,
BLESS THOSE WHO HAVE DONE THAT.
BUT, NO, THIS IS REAL, AND THIS FALLEN WORLD,
WE ARE INVITED INTO THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SUFFERINGS.
AND WE'LL LEARN OF HIS HEART THERE.
REBECCA: THAT'S SO GOOD.
ANY LAST WORDS OF WISDOM FOR THOSE OR ENCOURAGEMENT
FOR THOSE WHO ARE IN THE NIGHT RIGHT NOW?
DR. CHOLE: YES.
DON'T BAIL ON MY FRIEND.
PLEASE.
DON'T GIVE UP.
DON'T LET SATAN INSIDE YOU TO THINK THAT GOD IS NOT GOOD
OR THAT YOU WERE NEVER CUT OUT FOR THIS CHRISTIANITY STUFF.
OR THAT THE PEOPLE OF GOD, THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO REASON
AT ALL TO INVEST IN THEM.
DON'T LET SATAN INCITE YOU TO BAIL.
PUSH ON.
PRESS ON.
TAKE THE PAIN.
PUSH IT INTO GOD'S HEART.
AND WATCH WHAT HE DOES WITH IT.
HE WILL SHAPE IT AND HE WILL MOLD IT INTO A SUBSTANCE
YOUR GENERATION DESPERATELY NEEDS TO GUIDE THEM,
A SUBSTANCE CALLED CHARACTER,
A SUBSTANCE CALLED HOPE AND FAITH AND LOVE.
SO IT'S THOSE VERY NIGHT SEASONS THAT WE TRY TO AVOID
THAT ACTUALLY ARE SHAPING US INTO THE PEOPLE
THAT OUR GENERATION DESPERATELY NEEDS.
THOSE WHO WALK THROUGH THE NIGHT HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY
TO THOSE WHO ARE FAMILIAR WITH DARKNESS.
REBECCA: THAT'S SO GOOD.
CAN YOU DO A FINAL PRAYER FOR MAYBE SOMEONE WHO'S LISTENING
AND THEY WANT THAT RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS
BUT THEY DON'T KNOW HOW?
DR. CHOLE: YES.
OH, I WOULD BE HONORED TO.
GOD, I PRAY FOR THE SOUL WHO, RIGHT NOW,
IS THINKING, I THINK, I BELIEVE,
BUT I'M JUST NOT SURE.
O JESUS, YOU ARE WITH THEM,
YOU HAVE BEEN CALLING THEIR NAME.
THAT'S WHY THEY'RE THINKING THESE THOUGHTS RIGHT NOW.
AND SO, GOD, I ASK THAT YOU WOULD DEPOSIT IN THEM,
YOU AS THE AUTHOR OF THEIR FAITH
THAT YOU WOULD DEPOSIT IN THEM THE FAITH TO SAY,
YES, I BELIEVE.
THE FAITH TO SAY, YES, I WILL FOLLOW.
AND GOD, I KNOW THAT YOU WILL DO FOR THEM
WHAT YOU HAVE DONE FOR COUNTLESS SOULS BEFORE.
YOU WILL KEEP CARRYING US.
YOU WILL WRAP YOUR ARMS AROUND US.
YOU WILL SURROUND US WITH YOUR TRUTH AND YOUR WORD
AND YOUR LOVE.
AND YOU WILL CARRY US ALL THE WAY HOME.
SO FOR THAT SOUL WHO WANDERS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT,
IF YOU LOVE THEM, O LORD,
LET THEM HEAR, YES, THEY ARE LOVED, THEY ARE KNOWN,
THEY ARE SEEN, THEY ARE WANTED.
AND MAY THEY STEP IN FAITH INTO RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU.
IN JESUS' MIGHTY NAME I PRAY, AMEN.
REBECCA: AMEN.
WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
DR. CHOLE: OH, ABSOLUTELY.
THANK YOU.
THIS WAS AN ABSOLUTE DELIGHT.
REBECCA: SO GOOD.
AND FOR THOSE, BECAUSE WE REALLY JUST SCRATCHED THE SURFACE
OF YOUR BOOK, THE NIGHT IS NORMAL .
FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO READ IT, LISTEN TO IT, HOW CAN THEY?
DR. CHOLE: YES.
GO ANYWHERE BOOKS ARE SOLD; AMAZON,
BARNES & NOBLE, CHRISTIAN BOOKS.
WE HAVE A WORK BOOK COMING OUT VERY SOON
WITH A TEACHING VIDEO SERIES.
AND EVEN A SONG THAT WILL BE RELEASED HERE
IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS.
REBECCA: WELL, THAT SOUNDS AMAZING.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY,
AND WE HOPE TO SEE YOU BACK.
DR. CHOLE: OH, I WOULD LOVE THAT.
IT WAS A JOY.
THANK YOU.
REBECCA: THANK YOU.